Mercedes AMG F1 W03

[Byron R]

In reference to diverting air for the nose hole to the driver or to blow the wing, I wonder if the drivers could feel the air flow change. Instant feed back to the drivers to tell the engineers at what speed they lost air flow into the cockpit or if drs activated how long till driver airflow starts again after drs is released.

[Ganxxta]

In reference to diverting air for the nose hole to the driver or to blow the wing, I wonder if the drivers could feel the air flow change. Instant feed back to the drivers to tell the engineers at what speed they lost air flow into the cockpit or if drs activated how long till driver airflow starts again after drs is released.

I think during Testing they had better ways to measure it, put some sensors somewhere in it and you have exact data.

[Metalrulz]

there is alot to be gained if you observe the way the ones on mclaren/ redbull have changed..

How do we know that for certain? Just because RB and McLaren were overall better performers does not mean everything they did on their cars was correct. It only means the sum of their activities was better. We is little we can do to isolate the performance of the brake ducts from the rest of the car.

Brian

Well, they kept the same front wing for 3 years with slight modifications with the theory if nothing is wrong then why fix it. those brake ducts were the 1s introduced on the w02 at last years barcelona test and if there was not much to gain from them then you would not see teams changing/modifying or placing fins around / inside those ducts. the performance benefits could be minimal but it is necessary especially this year when it could be close at the front between the teams ( atleast i hope it is )

[aduka11]

By the regulations it says driver cant directly activate DRS....

But how about his engineer from pitwall?

[Tatsu333]

RE: DRS-switched front wing blowing - what if the front portion of the signaling path were a (semi-) closed system?

I.E. it takes in additional volume of air each time the DRS is activated and the wing holes open, but maintains the air volume inside the signaling path between activations, bleeding off just enough to de-activate the front wing when the DRS is closed. This would reduce the lag time in the system and the volume of air required to switch it.

In the past 'we believe' they used a fluid switch that requires a constant signal flow to function. This is not an energize only to set the flow path. It must stay energized to function. Although I can not quote the rule, I would say you are not allow any moving parts in an aero system except where noted, so flap type valves are out.

Is this on point with your quote?

Brian

Yes, exactly - if there is any secondary device (E.G. a flap-type valve or some other kind of pressure-activated piece that diverts airflow), I believe that could be considered as being operated by the driver via the DRS. What I am thinking is a "balance of flows" controlled by different-sized/shaped orifices in the plumbing, which would have no moving parts.

Here's my thinking:

1. If the orifices that allow air from the nose hole to cool the driver are slightly larger than those leading to the front wing slots, the air should prefer to travel that direction, all other factors being equal (it would be the path of least resistance).

2. Once the limit of flow through the driver cooling orifices (let's call them DCO's) was reached (in similar fashion to an intake restrictor on a WRC engine), the air would travel the alternate path to the front wing, giving you the passive operation, which could be tuned with different-sized DCO's.

3. To force the air down that path earlier than the passive airflow level, you would introduce more airflow via the rear ductwork. This could exit into the nose either ahead of the DCO's, behind them, or mid-stream. Ahead, they would simply introduce more total volume, maxing out the flow through the DCO's. Behind, they would pressurize the volume of air between the DCO's and the driver cooling vents, increasing resistance to flow through the DCO's. In the middle, they would disrupt the flow through the DCO's and add to the volume. In any of the three scenarios, airflow through the DCO's maxes out on demand, forcing air in the nose to travel the alternate path to the wing.

4. When the rear wing holes are covered (I.E. DRS inactivated) there is no flow from the rear, but the ductwork stays filled/lightly pressurized by the air already in the ducts when the DRS switched off plus the air coming from the front bleeding into it on the way to the driver via the DCO's.

In reference to diverting air for the nose hole to the driver or to blow the wing, I wonder if the drivers could feel the air flow change. Instant feed back to the drivers to tell the engineers at what speed they lost air flow into the cockpit or if drs activated how long till driver airflow starts again after drs is released.

If it worked as I described above, I don't think the drivers would ever experience a drop or cessation in cooling air. I think the drivers would notice a slight increase in airflow, if anything, when the DRS is activated, with the effect varying depending on the placement of the rear duct exits - E.G. slightly less effect with the ductwork exiting in front, more with it exiting midstream, and the most with it exiting behind the DCO's.

[Tatsu333]

By the regulations it says driver cant directly activate DRS....

But how about his engineer from pitwall?

Aside from radio communication to the driver, the pitwall is not allowed to send anything to the car. That has been banned for some time now.

[tjaeger]

What about a combination of the McLaren Octopus exhaust solution in reverse function. You take 2 of them in series, gives you a total of 1 (2 for system) in, 1 (2 for system) out, plus additional 4 signal switches, connected to 2 each for rear wing holes covered under DRS covered flap, plus 1 for constant flow stream, supply through nose cone hole and one connected to the rear beam wing (lower beam wing) as control reference for the system. This will allow a total combination of 2^3 = 8 signal settings.
These can be used and tuned to cover scenarios for:
- Qualification use DRS and FW
- Race DRS zone - DRS and FW
- Race none DRS zone - FW only
- High speed corners - DRS & FW (Quali)
- Low speed corners - FW only
- Race diff 1 - Behind Race car -
- Race diff 2 - Not behind Race car -

----------------
Of course I am not serious.....

Only simple equation of working out the combination of different pressure regime. Simple math...

[tjaeger]

Funny thing, just came over 40-50 pages of posting with sketches from every F1 expert sketching out the last years McLaren Octopus.
By the way did you read recent interview with Martin Whitmarsh? Talked about the myth of the octopus exhaust, which never existed in first place, not even anything close to that.....
Imagination is a beautiful thing..

[tjaeger]

Just looked over the suggested sketches, suggesting 2x holes in the rear wing end plates, hidden behind the DRS flap element.
When looking at dren's picture post (2nd pic) on page 67 of the forum one can clearly see that there appears to be a gap between the DRS upper flap element and the rear wing end plate side panel's. How could there be a hole, if there is a gap between those parts? How would you seal that area at all, given a) the obv. gap and b) when the DRS flap is closed?
First picture seem to give me the same impression of a gap there. Maybe I cannot see it well due to the low resolution.

[PlatinumZealot]

Question to anybody that can answer: What would happen to the car if the front wing is stalled at high speed?

[tjaeger]

Any hints?

[Tatsu333]

A sudden (complete) stall at high speed would be somewhat less dramatic than losing the front wing due to a collision - I.E. little visible deviation in a straight line, or immediate understeer in a high-speed corner.

That said, it's not like anyone is saying the wing would be completely stalled and generate no downforce, it would just be a reduction in downforce and drag, and in a DRS-dependent system, would only serve to restore some of the balance lost when the rear wing is activated on corner exit in qualifying, for example.

With regards to the gap/no gap/hole/no hole in the rear wing - unless you've seen it in person, up close, or with high-res photography of the area in question (which doesn't exist at the moment, as far as I am aware), it is all speculation... but hey, that's what the Internet is all about!

[marcush.]

it depends...if you are already understeering and lose suddenly 50N front gownforce-that´s no issue.
But imagine being quite at the limit with a neutral balance and the car losing front downforce..in the corner washing out to a wider path..you are unaexplainingly going to leave the track....

[hardingfv32]

Isn't this latest proposal with the DSR activation trying to balance the loss of rear downforce with some kind of loss of downforce at the rear?

This kind of goes back to why was RB able to use the DSR more the the other teams during Qualifying. You would think have the DSR open would cause an imbalance in the turns, assuming that the car would normally be balance in such turns, say for the race?

Brian

[aduka11]

Can usage of KERS anyway and anyhow activate this DRS?

btw about those gills on MGP...

I cant understand how gills disturb so much aerodynamics of the car?



Check how much Gills Ferrari F2008 had...yet it was a contender...