Mercedes AMG F1 W03

[PlatinumZealot]

Something like this:

Reading scarbs' twitter reminded me of the existence of a minimum radius rule on rear wing cross section ( the one that caught out Sauber in Oz last year).

Wouldn't this rule ban any shape like that?

Interesting...

FIA Technical Regulations Article 3.10.2:

With the exception of minimal parts solely associated with adjustment of the section in accordance with Article 3.18 :
- when viewed from the side of the car, no longitudinal vertical cross section may have more than two sections in this area, each of which must be closed.
- no part of these longitudinal cross sections in contact with the external air stream may have a local concave radius of curvature smaller than 100mm.

I think you could successfully argue that the concave radii in a void like that are not in contact with the external flow. If that was rejected, it would be impossible for the section to both be closed and to have concave radii that aren't exposed to the external flow, so the second part of the article would be redundant.

That is an external air flow. External air flow means not inside a piped system. In the drawing above there is no separation between the air on the OUTSIDE of the section with regular free stream air. That is no internal flow.

It's illegal. Countless Ideas have come up like this in 2011 by a bunch of users on this very same forum. It's so simple teams would have been doing it in 2011 if it was legal.

[Pup]

Oops!

Sorry Pup. Should have read the whole thread before I opened my mouth, but hey, great minds think alike eh!

But it's still pronounced Herbs (i.e. the H is not silent!)

I used to know a guy named Herb.

Check the edit I made after you posted...

[spilotes]

Check out the, what seem to be little slots, on the upper two cascades in this image. Thought it was interesting with all the speculation about "front wing F-Ducts". I didn't see any on the right side of the wing, but then again I could have just missed it. From a screenshot of Sky's coverage of FP2.



Cheers

Longtime lurker, first post

[Pup]

I think you could successfully argue that the concave radii in a void like that are not in contact with the external flow.

Well, that does sound like a Ross Brawn kind of argument.

[PlatinumZealot]

For those on the f-duct wing this is what I mean by internal and external air flows.

[Pup]

I wouldn't eat either of those bananas myself.

[spilotes]

Check out the slots in the two upper most cascades. Thought this was interesting with all the speculation about front wing f-ducts. Grabbed the image from Sky's FP2 coverage. I didn't notice these slots on the right hand side of the wing, but I could easily have missed it.



Cheers

Long time lurker, first post!

[forty-two]

But I'm wondering now if the DRS ducts aren't more like release valves. That is, if there is a wing being blown, there will be some back pressure in the system. The DRS holes could then be like release valves that lower that back pressure and so decrease the wing blowing beneath whatever threshold causes the wing to stall.

Interesting point.

I guess that could remove the need to have a fluidic switch at all, but wouldn't that work back to front. blowing the wing at all times except when the DRS is open?

I guess there are ways of using that to your advantage though.

[hollus]

Sound too wacky to be true?

Not to me.

The exposed ducts are most likely the switch, with the major flow happening elsewhere. Think of the old f-ducts - the wing covering and uncovering the opening is analogous to the driver covering and uncovering the old fluidic switch control with his hand.

My guess is that the intake is the secondary inlet behind the main air intake, and the flow is going through the duct that connects to the beam wing. I think the beam wing is what's being blown, since it's outside the rules limiting the rear wing itself. Where the pilot flow from the wing goes, I'm not sure, but it could be hidden under or within the main duct. Someone mentioned two ducts were visible? I haven't been paying close enough attention myself. Anyway, I'm guessing that there's a fluidic switch, similar to before, under the engine cover that directs the main flow either through the duct to the beam wing or simply out the engine cover exit.

But I'm wondering now if the DRS ducts aren't more like release valves. That is, if there is a wing being blown, there will be some back pressure in the system. The DRS holes could then be like release valves that lower that back pressure and so decrease the wing blowing beneath whatever threshold causes the wing to stall.

It took you a while to come along, Pup. I've thinking that all day, it is so beautifully simple, and those holes just look like exits, they are basically shapeless! No need for a connection to the front wing. Just blow the beam wing most of the time, and then, when DRS is activated, open a larger exit hole for the air. Then you have the DRS flap in a flat position, a stalled beam wing and a bit of extra stall in the rear wing. Triple whammy! It would be a straights only system, but the whole rear of the car would stall, the drag reduction must be monumental.
No switches, no valves, no need for overly straight or large ducts, nothing to malfunction. It is so elegant and simple that it has to be true.
And yet, I cannot for my life find any picture of a slot in the beam wing. Does anyone have a picture of a slot in the beam wing!?!?!?

Edit: It has become impossible to write a long post in this thread without someone writing exactly the same thing in less words in the mean time! Need faster fingers!

[forty-two]

Need faster fingers!

That's what she said!

I guess we now need to find the elusive outlet(s)!

[hardingfv32]

That is an external air flow. External air flow means not inside a piped system. In the drawing above there is no separation between the air on the OUTSIDE of the section with regular free stream air. That is no internal flow.

Yes, this is external flow, but as long as we satisfy the radius rule while is it illegal?

Brian

[hardingfv32]

I've thinking that all day, it is so beautifully simple, and those holes just look like exits

We don't no what the pressure gradient over the hole is. The use of louvers would indicate high pressure in the area but the hole is close to the top of the main element. Inconclusive....

Brian

[forty-two]

Perhaps I'm way off here, but what louvres?

I don't see any louvres around the hole, or am I missing something?

EDIT: do you mean the louvres in the endplate which have been there for yonks?

[mix2mix]

how you do not understood what is the point? when DRS are open air come through the hole what are open, and this air go through RW and exit through this holes who are position on top RW, and reduce vortex which are creates when DRS are open. This is benefit,and this is all the wisdom about this.

Read the thread more carefully. We are talking about the legality of slots in the RW.

"Whiting would not reveal further details of how the Mercedes system works, but said that he viewed it as completely passive.

"What it appears some teams are doing is that when the DRS is operated, it will allow air to pass into a duct and do other things," he explained.

"That is all I can say – you will probably have a pretty good idea of what it might be doing, and other teams will as well. But it is completely passive. There are no moving parts in it; it doesn't interact with any suspension. No steering, nothing. Therefore I cannot see a rule that prohibits it."

End of story. Legality are out of question.

[PlatinumZealot]

That is an external air flow. External air flow means not inside a piped system. In the drawing above there is no separation between the air on the OUTSIDE of the section with regular free stream air. That is no internal flow.

Yes, this is external flow, but as long as we satisfy the radius rule while is it illegal?

Brian

Yes I think. But that is impossible. I will show why.