Pirelli 2013

Here are our CFD links and discussions about aerodynamics, suspension, driver safety and tyres. Please stick to F1 on this forum.
User avatar
WhiteBlue
92
Joined: 14 Apr 2008, 20:58
Location: WhiteBlue Country

Re: Pirelli 2013

Post

strad wrote:
It is all in the thread. Sam Michael and Martin Whitmarsh told the press that at all times McLaren ran the specified pressures and cambers required by Pirelli.
You miss my point...on purpose?....Sam and Martin can say that because prior to Germany Pirelli had no REQUIRED pressures or camber settings,,,in fact Pirelli okayed swapping sides..Quite frankly because the tires are NOT uni-directional.
Sorry but that is not correct. Pirelli had camber and pressure limits specified prior to Silverstone. Their complaint was that teams did not respect those specs at all times and deviated in Silverstone, which McLaren did not.
We had a difference of opinion whether tyre pressures were a dominant influence in the blowouts. The fact that there were specs and they had all been respected by McLaren shows pressures were not the big deal.

And the current construction is asymmetric which makes it weaker when swapped between sides. Until Silverstone Pirelli did not consider that to be relevant. Most likely because they thought they had a sufficient safety margin to compensate for a relatively small extra load. The tyre swapping is different to the camber and pressure issue. Pirelli never allowed the teams to deviate from pressure and camber specs, but they did with tyre swapping. We do know that McLaren asked in writing and were allowed.

I hope that is much clearer now. Which brings us to the question which were the big load factors. There cannot be any doubt that cornering speeds were up and the loads from that was underestimated. The only question that is controversial is the standing waves on the side walls that were reported by Ross Brawn. They were not mentioned by Pirelli which leads some people to believe they did not exist. My view on this is known. Standing waves have played a role in Indy 2005 where we had side wall failures in a high speed situation as well. In Silverstone it was the shoulder that proved to be weaker. Standing waves can easily contribute massive loads that will negate your safety margins quicker than any other single factor. And they usually are not generated because you try to avoid the frequencies where they can excite you elastic system. But designers are known to get this wrong, which Pirelli naturally would not want to admit for fear of looking incompetent.

I do respect people who have a different opinion on standing waves, but I think that those people should also respect an opinion that is based on the testament of an awfully experienced F1 engineer such as Ross Brawn is.
Formula One's fundamental ethos is about success coming to those with the most ingenious engineering and best .............................. organization, not to those with the biggest budget. (Dave Richards)

User avatar
raymondu999
54
Joined: 04 Feb 2010, 07:31

Re: Pirelli 2013

Post

At the very least, we know Pirelli had camber limit recommendations at Spa 2011 (remember Red Bull?) and began enforcing them strictly in Monza 2011, thanks to the events of Spa 2011 (Red Bull over-cambered the tyres and caused shoulder blistering)
失败者找理由,成功者找方法

Hobbs04
Hobbs04
5
Joined: 07 Jun 2012, 19:18

Re: Pirelli 2013

Post

Do we have any photo evidence of these standing waves? Is it similar to a dragster tires at launch where the tire ripples along the sidewall?

User avatar
WhiteBlue
92
Joined: 14 Apr 2008, 20:58
Location: WhiteBlue Country

Re: Pirelli 2013

Post

No, Ross mentioned that he has seen photographs but to my knowledge they have never been seen by the public. The issue is largely ignored by the press. The only people who talked about it were Ross and Michael Schmidt of AMuS.
Formula One's fundamental ethos is about success coming to those with the most ingenious engineering and best .............................. organization, not to those with the biggest budget. (Dave Richards)

User avatar
raymondu999
54
Joined: 04 Feb 2010, 07:31

Re: Pirelli 2013

Post

strad wrote:
Jersey Tom wrote:Paul Haney... :roll:
I only did the polite thing to supply the source.
Point is I agree with what he says.
While you're here...
Click on this pic for a short video and then explain what appears to be a lot of flex in the McLaren fronts. I check the Ferrari and other onboards and didn't notice the effect. I thought it might be the lettering causing an illusion, but it doesn't do it on other cars as it would if it was optical.
watch the gold stripe..thanks in advance
http://www.stradsplace.com/VIDEOS/tire-flex.mpg
Source: http://www.f1technical.net/forum/viewto ... =6&t=10612

Now to see if strad still has that screen grab he told me he has...
失败者找理由,成功者找方法

Blanchimont
Blanchimont
214
Joined: 09 Nov 2012, 23:47

Re: Pirelli 2013

Post

Not a picture of a F1 tyre, but still nice to look at!

Image

from: http://www.etyres.co.uk/glossary-tyre-t ... nding-wave

The second picture's description (excessive heat) is interesting, too.
Dear FIA, if you read this, please pm me for a redesign of the Technical Regulations to avoid finger nose shapes for 2016! :-)

CBeck113
CBeck113
51
Joined: 17 Feb 2013, 19:43

Re: Pirelli 2013

Post

Hobbs04 wrote:Do we have any photo evidence of these standing waves? Is it similar to a dragster tires at launch where the tire ripples along the sidewall?
A dragster's tires twist due to the torque at launch, which is actually due to the very weak sidewall design:

http://youtu.be/lNjJaTt0hNw

In this video you can see that the sidewalls flex even when braking under "normal" load. The sidewalls act as a clutch to aid traction off the line. I'm pretty sure that this is happening during acceleration on F1 cars too, but I haven't seen a video of it. This is not a standing wave, but could very well excite one when the torque lessens and the tread catches up with the rim.
“Strange women lying in ponds distributing swords is no basis for a system of government. Supreme executive power derives from a mandate from the masses, not from some farcical aquatic ceremony!” Monty Python and the Holy Grail

User avatar
WhiteBlue
92
Joined: 14 Apr 2008, 20:58
Location: WhiteBlue Country

Re: Pirelli 2013

Post

Blanchimont wrote:Not a picture of a F1 tyre, but still nice to look at!
http://www.etyres.co.uk/images/glossary ... -wave1.jpg
from: http://www.etyres.co.uk/glossary-tyre-t ... nding-wave
The second picture's description (excessive heat) is interesting, too.
This is a very good source. It shows that standing waves can be excited by normal deformation of the contact patch when the elastic properties of the side wall start to match the load and angular velocity conditions in high speed cornering. We must not forget that there are tremendous downforce and lateral forces applied during the Becketts Chapel complex.

You obviously get additional deformation that does not happen under no wave condition. This produces more heat which eventually destroyers the tyre below the calculated load. It is significant that these failures always had steel belting involved and never Kevlar. The damping and elasticity of Kevlar combined with different heat capacity makes it a lot less prone to generating waves.
Formula One's fundamental ethos is about success coming to those with the most ingenious engineering and best .............................. organization, not to those with the biggest budget. (Dave Richards)

User avatar
strad
117
Joined: 02 Jan 2010, 01:57

Re: Pirelli 2013

Post

They make suggestions,
And the current construction is asymmetric which makes it weaker when swapped between sides
You're going to have to offer a reason better than the televised one about how the belts are wrapped. That would not make them unidirectional.
To achieve anything, you must be prepared to dabble on the boundary of disaster.”
Sir Stirling Moss

User avatar
WhiteBlue
92
Joined: 14 Apr 2008, 20:58
Location: WhiteBlue Country

Re: Pirelli 2013

Post

strad wrote:They make suggestions,
And the current construction is asymmetric which makes it weaker when swapped between sides
You're going to have to offer a reason better than the televised one about how the belts are wrapped. That would not make them unidirectional.
Strad, so how do you think I should know what was televised in your market? We better drop this conversation. I'm afraid it's not going anywhere.
Formula One's fundamental ethos is about success coming to those with the most ingenious engineering and best .............................. organization, not to those with the biggest budget. (Dave Richards)

lebesset
lebesset
7
Joined: 06 Aug 2008, 14:00

Re: Pirelli 2013

Post

to the optimist a glass is half full ; to the pessimist a glass is half empty ; to the F1 engineer the glass is twice as big as it needs to be

User avatar
WhiteBlue
92
Joined: 14 Apr 2008, 20:58
Location: WhiteBlue Country

Re: Pirelli 2013

Post

There is some logic in the decision. Not so good for Re Bull and Mercedes thought. But they got the 2012 construction that will suit them better.
Formula One's fundamental ethos is about success coming to those with the most ingenious engineering and best .............................. organization, not to those with the biggest budget. (Dave Richards)

User avatar
raymondu999
54
Joined: 04 Feb 2010, 07:31

Re: Pirelli 2013

Post

I think a more significant issue will be the fact that the 2012 construction didn't like compound loads - and to see who's gonna win/lose from that. I think the serious trail brakers as well as the "carry speed through apex" drivers are gonna be hurt, while the late-apexers will benefit.

Those such as Hamilton and Vettel who seem to use the rear to rotate into the corner before flooring the car for exhaust-derived traction could come to the fore.
失败者找理由,成功者找方法

User avatar
gary123
14
Joined: 12 Jan 2013, 20:49
Location: Italy

Re: Pirelli 2013

Post

sorry for the OT but pirelli what is going to do with the next year tyres?? are they going to change structure?

User avatar
strad
117
Joined: 02 Jan 2010, 01:57

Re: Pirelli 2013

Post

WhiteBlue wrote:
strad wrote:They make suggestions,
And the current construction is asymmetric which makes it weaker when swapped between sides
You're going to have to offer a reason better than the televised one about how the belts are wrapped. That would not make them unidirectional.
Strad, so how do you think I should know what was televised in your market? We better drop this conversation. I'm afraid it's not going anywhere.
I'm afraid you don't understand my point...
The fact that from Germany they said they were giving instructions and strict guidelines that would be enforced mean.....
That if they are doing this from Germany that means that prior to Germany there were no strict guidelines to follow..only suggestions.
To achieve anything, you must be prepared to dabble on the boundary of disaster.”
Sir Stirling Moss