2016 Hungarian Grand Prix - Hungaroring, 22-24 July

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SectorOne
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Re: 2016 Hungarian Grand Prix - Hungaroring, 22-24 July

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Jolle wrote:He goes to the outside (move one), stays there for a couple of meters and then steers straight to the apex.
We must be watching completely different videos then.

He moves once to the outside(1) then he moves again on the inside while braking(2) and then some time after that he actually starts turning for the corner.

He makes two moves in the braking zone before turning into the corner.
"If the only thing keeping a person decent is the expectation of divine reward, then brother that person is a piece of sh*t"

Sonador
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Re: 2016 Hungarian Grand Prix - Hungaroring, 22-24 July

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SectorOne wrote:
Jolle wrote:He goes to the outside (move one), stays there for a couple of meters and then steers straight to the apex.
We must be watching completely different videos then.

He moves once to the outside(1) then he moves again on the inside while braking(2) and then some time after that he actually starts turning for the corner.

He makes two moves in the braking zone before turning into the corner.
You can move outside do defend, and back onto the racing line, that counts as 1 move.
Not two.

But you can argue what the racing line is.

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SectorOne
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Re: 2016 Hungarian Grand Prix - Hungaroring, 22-24 July

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Sonador wrote:You can move outside do defend, and back onto the racing line, that counts as 1 move.
Not two.

But you can argue what the racing line is.
The only time he was on the racing line was after the incident as he´s right on the apex of the corner.
His first move was towards the racing line then he reacts to Kimi and decides to hold the inside line which is two clear moves.
After those two moves he starts turning into the corner and eventually finds himself on the racing line.

You either commit to outside line or inside line.
Verstappen commited to outside line then changed his mind and took the inside line.
Last edited by SectorOne on Mon Jul 25, 2016 4:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"If the only thing keeping a person decent is the expectation of divine reward, then brother that person is a piece of sh*t"

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Phil
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Re: 2016 Hungarian Grand Prix - Hungaroring, 22-24 July

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EDIT: this is a reply to sonador, not sector.

That is not quite correct. I recommend reading this article here:

https://f1metrics.wordpress.com/2014/08 ... of-racing/

Quote:

20.3 Any driver moving back towards the racing line, having earlier defended his position off-line, should leave at least one car width between his own car and the edge of the track on the approach to the corner.
Not for nothing, Rosberg's Championship is the only thing that lends credibility to Hamilton's recent success. Otherwise, he'd just be the guy who's had the best car. — bhall II
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Sonador
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Re: 2016 Hungarian Grand Prix - Hungaroring, 22-24 July

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Does the 20.3 apply when a car is behind you, or next to you (or both)?

Edit:
After watching de video again and again, aplying the 20.3 rule. he did enough leave space on the inside.
But it was borderline before the corner i agree ...

Wil read the full article later, its a long and good write up of the rules.

Sonador
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Re: 2016 Hungarian Grand Prix - Hungaroring, 22-24 July

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GPR-A wrote:I can't follow the stupidity here. How is this a double move? Verstappen moved to his right and then came back to left, then never moved again while cornering. If anything, Kimi was being very stupid there trying to go right, then come left and then go right again. Trying to go down the inside, Kimi would have simply T-boned Max. There was no way to dive inside there and come out clean with the kind of speed that he was trying to carry. It's plain as daylight that Kimi was being too ambitious. Ferrari clearly know there was no issue and hence they didn't lodged a complaint, protest or something. Looking at the video below, no one can protest.

In all Hungarian GPs, the driver defending, tries to take inside line into that corner first, leaving outside open and then closes back after making the corner. It was exactly what Max was doing. Kimi was trying to sell a dummy with that double move and failed miserably.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0TNlraWB_y4

This is what Kimi would have done if he moved inside. That he did to Bottas.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sDLpyZ1MjxU
I agree with GPR=A on this, do not see how Verstappen was at fault, even with 20.3 in mind.
Even if Max stayed on the line that he defended, it would have pushed Raikonen more of track.
Kimi was just as agressive as Max was.

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Phil
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Re: 2016 Hungarian Grand Prix - Hungaroring, 22-24 July

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The point is, it's not exactly clean racing. Verstappen was in a favorable position as the leading car on track, the onus being on the car behind. Had he simply covered the inside line, it wouldn't have been an issue, as Kimi would have been forced to go around the outside (which is always going to be a big task, much more in Hungary). The situation happened because Kimi was closing fast from behind, then Verstappen jerked to the right, closing the outside, so Kimi then felt he was game on with a dive up the inside, only to then see Verstappen close that gap.

The point here is that you want to be consistent, you want to avoid someone rear-ending you and when you start to drive in an erratic manner like Verstappen did, the potential for a collision increases significantly. They were both lucky that it only ended in a broken front-wing plate and no further damage to either cars.
Not for nothing, Rosberg's Championship is the only thing that lends credibility to Hamilton's recent success. Otherwise, he'd just be the guy who's had the best car. — bhall II
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dans79
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Re: 2016 Hungarian Grand Prix - Hungaroring, 22-24 July

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sosic2121 wrote: dear lord, will you stop with rosberg.
How about you stop. I mean stop complaining because people aren't saying what you want to hear.
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turbof1
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Re: 2016 Hungarian Grand Prix - Hungaroring, 22-24 July

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Phil wrote:EDIT: this is a reply to sonador, not sector.

That is not quite correct. I recommend reading this article here:

https://f1metrics.wordpress.com/2014/08 ... of-racing/

Quote:

20.3 Any driver moving back towards the racing line, having earlier defended his position off-line, should leave at least one car width between his own car and the edge of the track on the approach to the corner.
Truly awesome article! That's a bookmark.
#AeroFrodo

GrizzleBoy
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Re: 2016 Hungarian Grand Prix - Hungaroring, 22-24 July

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Hmm, I think Max maybe did use more than one move.

Exiting the previous corner, Max covered off the inside line staying off the racing line, but straying slowly toward the racing line.

Heading towards. the next corner, Kimi jinks right towards the racing line and max follows with a sharp small direction change. Its not big, but it's a defensive move.

Into the braking zone, Kimi jinks left to go inside and max sharply turn to block while braking, not on the racing line. That sharp turn in is not part of any racing line. It was quite the obvious blocking move.

You can't use the "second move was to take the racing line" reasoning in this case, because the racing line is on the complete other side of the track. In fact, Max completely departed from the racing line to block the inside, A blatant second defensive move not even the slightest bit to do with "taking back the racing line".

I literally only just looked at the incident and it's quite clear cut. Max moved onto the racing line to defend, and off it during braking, to defend. Two defences, the second having nothing to do with taking an optimal racing line which is a requirement for it to be legal.

Im sure there is a rule against sudden or sharp movements in the regs too although I have no idea where.

Edit: Here we go
Sudden changes of direction just before or within the braking zone are considered extremely dangerous, as they can leave the attacking driver nowhere to go. This rule is not stated explicitly in the FIA sporting regulations, but is considered an “abnormal change of direction” under sporting regulation 20.5
I'd call suddenly going diagonal and braking in front of another car in a braking zone way off the normal racing line to be pretty abnormal.
Last edited by GrizzleBoy on Mon Jul 25, 2016 6:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.

santos
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Re: 2016 Hungarian Grand Prix - Hungaroring, 22-24 July

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It would be nice to get a view of this inside the cockpit of Max. But for me, from the vídeos that i've seen so far, i see Max making two moves. If this is permitted within the rules, so it's ok.

munudeges
munudeges
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Re: 2016 Hungarian Grand Prix - Hungaroring, 22-24 July

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It's not so much the two moves it's the fact that Verstappen moved within the braking zone, when Raikkonen behind him was braking. On top of that he weaved from side-to-side all the way down the main straight on more than one occasion.

He had his warning in Monaco last year. Either someone gets ahold of this kid or he's going to wind up dead.

basti313
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Re: 2016 Hungarian Grand Prix - Hungaroring, 22-24 July

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Phil wrote:
3jawchuck wrote:Verstappen's defence was legal and the stewards agreed. That's all that matters. Unless you want to go down the rabbit hole of FIA conspiracy nonsense.
The problem is that the sport is far from consistent enough to be throwing around claims that "the stewards agreed". I'm doubtful they even looked at it. Fair enough if they had an investigation going and decided one way or another, but they didn't.

This isn't much better than for instance qualifying, when Rosberg set purples during a double waved yellow (and not obeying it caused a driver to lose his life not too long ago) and one gets the feeling they only started a formal investigation when they realized the whole world was talking about this incident hours after it took place.

Sorry, the stewards aren't by any stretch a reliable and consistent source at all. #-o
I think you are on the wrong foot with this one. The stewards, of course, watch the race and, of course, can not oversee flying front wing parts.
I am sure they also discussed it and it was too fast too clear to even send out the "under investigation" message. That is the usual case when the driver steward says "nothing to discuss" from the beginning. Maybe this fast decision is wrong, but many of you are complaining about too long or late investigations as well.

The same for the pole lap under yellow: Merc (I think Paddy) said on an interview, that there was no discussion. The case was clear before Ros had to go to the stewards. So I think the "investigation" was just show. They saw the clear track in turn 9 and the lift in turn 8 already on their live data.

munudeges
munudeges
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Re: 2016 Hungarian Grand Prix - Hungaroring, 22-24 July

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Edax wrote:The stewards were right in their decision. He only moved once.
Nope, he jinked under braking. It's not the two moves thing, it's the fact that he thinks he can get away with this under braking. Drivers in the past have certainly been robust, but they have known that you don't do that because you're simply going to get hit - badly. He also weaved all the way down the pit straight, which no one seems to have picked up on. In the 60s he would have had his face rearranged by another driver because of the possible consequences.

The stewards didn't look at it because they knew they would have found the telemetry evidence and it was conspicuous how spineless twats like Coulthard obviously didn't want to look at it too closely. Max is protected it seems, even though Sainz is far superior and measured IMO.
By the way the comparison with Monaco eludes me. When was he defending dangerously there?
He completely misjudged his braking to Grosjean in front who had fading tyres and almost killed himself. He then proceeded to mouth off at more experienced drivers who told him he was at fault.

Edax
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Re: 2016 Hungarian Grand Prix - Hungaroring, 22-24 July

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munudeges wrote:
Edax wrote:The stewards were right in their decision. He only moved once.
Nope, he jinked under braking. It's not the two moves thing, it's the fact that he thinks he can get away with this under braking.

Relax I really don't think we disagree here about that the move was over the limit sporting wise. Even though I like Max I don't like this way of defending, period.

All I said was that the rule says nothing about "jinxing" other drivers or moving under braking so until they change the rule (which I would favor) this is allowed.

He completely misjudged his braking to Grosjean in front who had fading tyres and almost killed himself. He then proceeded to mouth off at more experienced drivers who told him he was at fault.
So when he drives in the back of another it his fault and when someone drives I the back of him it his fault. There is not much that the boy can do right is there? :D

About bathmouthing more experienced drivers. If you live in a glass house you shouldn't throw stones. I think it was fair of him to remind Massa of his little escapade in Canada. After all that crash even put Perez and himself in hospital. These mistakes should not happen but then again every driver has made them.
Image

On a lighter note If you think this Verstappen is bad you should see his dad "defending" a blue flag overtake. :D