2017 Italian Grand Prix - Monza, 1-3 September

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outsid3r
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Re: 2017 Italian Grand Prix - Monza, 1-3 September

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Schuttelberg wrote:
Fri Sep 01, 2017 10:41 am
The Halo's make the helmet design non existent for the viewers.
No point complaining about it now, we'll just have to get used to it... It was just introduced for the 2018 F2 as well
- there is no turning back

AnotherAlex
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Re: 2017 Italian Grand Prix - Monza, 1-3 September

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outsid3r wrote:
Fri Sep 01, 2017 9:36 am
Restomaniac wrote:
Fri Sep 01, 2017 9:28 am
Chene_Mostert wrote:
Fri Sep 01, 2017 9:24 am


Can we trust anything from ted or Toto?
Now that's the question. I got the impression that Paul Di Resta wasn't convinced.
Someone should ask Merc for one good reason why they prematurely introduced a new engine then :)
It was typical Toto; he said that they were within the 0.9l/100km limit for the race but that’s hardly surprising. Hamilton would only have had to use their maximum power/consumption mode when Vettel was within DRS distance and there would have been significant oil saving whilst behind the safety car.
I’d put money on Mercedes’ oil consumption having exceeded 0.9l/100km at times during the race and in Q3 and, unless they’re directed to do otherwise by the FIA, they will continue to do so.

Zynerji
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Re: 2017 Italian Grand Prix - Monza, 1-3 September

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If the FIA has the data showing that this engine did a race distance on the 0.9l, wouldn't using 1.2 after that be a clear admittance that it is purely for burning oil as fuel, thus illegal?

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Phil
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Re: 2017 Italian Grand Prix - Monza, 1-3 September

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I'm not sure, but I think I read somewhere (or was it in the oil-as-fuel-topic?) that it's rather difficult to measure how much oil is effectively being used, as they don't have.... err, a reservoir or catch tank or whatever it's called in English to see the excess. There's probably a way to do it, or else a limit would make little sense...?

EDIT: Found it... http://www.espn.co.uk/video/clip?id=20495360

:idea:
Not for nothing, Rosberg's Championship is the only thing that lends credibility to Hamilton's recent success. Otherwise, he'd just be the guy who's had the best car. — bhall II
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zac510
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Re: 2017 Italian Grand Prix - Monza, 1-3 September

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Zynerji wrote:
Fri Sep 01, 2017 11:16 am
If the FIA has the data showing that this engine did a race distance on the 0.9l, wouldn't using 1.2 after that be a clear admittance that it is purely for burning oil as fuel, thus illegal?
No, I think that's far too large jump to conclusion.
The extra oil burn amount could be useful when the engine is at the end of its life and tolerances between engine parts are larger. A new engine will use less oil, and perhaps more or less at different tracks too.

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Schuttelberg
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Re: 2017 Italian Grand Prix - Monza, 1-3 September

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Merc walkover coming up this weekend unless it rains.
"Sebastian there's very, you're a member of a very select few.. Stewart, Lauda, Piquet, Senna, Prost, Schumacher, Fangio.. VETTEL!"

marvin78
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Re: 2017 Italian Grand Prix - Monza, 1-3 September

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That was crystal clear before any session. The PU is just miles ahead of the competition.

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Big Mangalhit
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Re: 2017 Italian Grand Prix - Monza, 1-3 September

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Restomaniac wrote:
Fri Sep 01, 2017 10:34 am
Phil wrote:
Fri Sep 01, 2017 10:29 am
NathanOlder wrote:
Fri Sep 01, 2017 10:18 am
Is it not as simple as them wanting a fresh engine for Spa ?
I think because only 4 engines are allowed to be used this year, it would make more sense to wait and introduce the engine later as Ferrari is doing. Still, it's weird that Mercedes jumped the gun if not to make use of the 1.2 oil directive. Then again, to say they will only use the new directive makes sense - anything else would cause a bit of a controversy and criticism, especially if they go on and dominate on certain tracks. They might try to use 0.9, but have some special modes available if they deem it necessary.

On the other hand, Ferrari may find a bigger gain by waiting a little longer and have more time for their final update...
Its swings and roundabout though. Aren't Ferrari now having to used all their turbochargers on rotation now where are Mercedes have newly unboxed ones to come (I know a new TC isn't on the same level as a new ICE)?

It would seem teams are going to be balancing like mad for the rest of the season.
Mercedes is also in their final TC and MGU-H. At this point they can only bring new MGU-K and ES and CE although the last two seem to be irrelevant.

Restomaniac
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Re: 2017 Italian Grand Prix - Monza, 1-3 September

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Big Mangalhit wrote:
Fri Sep 01, 2017 12:25 pm
Restomaniac wrote:
Fri Sep 01, 2017 10:34 am
Phil wrote:
Fri Sep 01, 2017 10:29 am


I think because only 4 engines are allowed to be used this year, it would make more sense to wait and introduce the engine later as Ferrari is doing. Still, it's weird that Mercedes jumped the gun if not to make use of the 1.2 oil directive. Then again, to say they will only use the new directive makes sense - anything else would cause a bit of a controversy and criticism, especially if they go on and dominate on certain tracks. They might try to use 0.9, but have some special modes available if they deem it necessary.

On the other hand, Ferrari may find a bigger gain by waiting a little longer and have more time for their final update...
Its swings and roundabout though. Aren't Ferrari now having to used all their turbochargers on rotation now where are Mercedes have newly unboxed ones to come (I know a new TC isn't on the same level as a new ICE)?

It would seem teams are going to be balancing like mad for the rest of the season.
Mercedes is also in their final TC and MGU-H. At this point they can only bring new MGU-K and ES and CE although the last two seem to be irrelevant.
True but haven't Ferrari been on number 4 a while longer. That's my point Ferrari will shortly be adding ICE 4 into the mix. At that point it's swings and roundabout with everyone mixing and matching like crazy.

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Big Mangalhit
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Re: 2017 Italian Grand Prix - Monza, 1-3 September

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They have, but at the time it was because there was no time to change parts.Basically they put two new TC at the same time meaning they have little usage between them so they could maybe go to the end of the championship.

But on the other hand they might need to introduce a new TC with the new ICE, usually these components go hand in hand and so they probably will need to take a penalty then.

The penalty of changing only the TC is 10 places on the grid, not the worse but that would mean probably a 5-6 position

Restomaniac
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Re: 2017 Italian Grand Prix - Monza, 1-3 September

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Big Mangalhit wrote:
Fri Sep 01, 2017 12:41 pm
They have, but at the time it was because there was no time to change parts.Basically they put two new TC at the same time meaning they have little usage between them so they could maybe go to the end of the championship.

But on the other hand they might need to introduce a new TC with the new ICE, usually these components go hand in hand and so they probably will need to take a penalty then.

The penalty of changing only the TC is 10 places on the grid, not the worse but that would mean probably a 5-6 position
I never thought of that point. I would then say that surely this weekend or last would be the place to take that penalty. Is that going to bite them? Although wait weren't the rules changed so that it isn't just an extra component thrown into the pool and the extra component is the only component you can use from then on? Surely if they have a TC that works with the new ICE then they can't go back to an old ICE with the then new TC that they then have to use.
Last edited by Restomaniac on Fri Sep 01, 2017 12:53 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Phil
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Re: 2017 Italian Grand Prix - Monza, 1-3 September

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So according to AMuS; the engine situation is as follows:

- the engine Haas is using is a specification 3 engine. Ferrari engine 4 has not been homolgated yet. According to sources, Ferrari is unable to find the expected performance increase on the dyno, so has pushed the introduction of the new engine back. Haas's 4th engine is therefore specification 3. If they want the newer engine, they will have to take a 5th engine.

- Mercedes has its version 4 engine (3.1 they call it) since Spa. That means that all customer teams will also get that one. Due to not having enough ready, Force-India and Williams will have to wait. They can either have 1 engine each in the next race or wait until Mercedes is ready to supply them with 2.

- Mercedes and Ferrari spoke to each other because Ferrari felt cheated due to Mercedes bringing its new engine in Spa. Apparently the 0.9l/100 directive is a bit ambiguous because it just speaks of engines and not engine-specification. One could interpret it to mean that Mercedes could use the old directive because their engine is already in the pool. On the other hand, it could be understood to mean that all engines must confirm to the new directive as of Monza. Because Mercedes felt it to mean the latter, they built the engine to work under the new directive of 0.9l, as the customer teams who have not used the engine yet will have to.***

- apparently the oil directive is being exaggerated and more relevant for qualifying. For qualifying, they use a thinner oil to achieve less wear. It's not about additives in the oils either. Apparently they can achieve up to 5hp like this. For the race, a thicker oil is used because it helps fuel efficiency due to better sealing of the cylinders and helps the longevity of the engine.

- The FIA has no means to measure the oil usage accurately. They use an oil stick, probably by measuring before the race and after to get a good indication of the usage. There is some tolerance for this reason. The FIA is working on better methods to measure it more accurately. By 2018, only 0.6 of oil will be allowed to be used and only one specification for the entire weekend.

http://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/form ... 20994.html

(translated by best-effort).


*** (My speculation): Maybe Mercedes introduced specification 4 to have the ability to use the older models for other races under the old oil directive where it's necessary. No one dictates which engine has to be used at which venue. From what I understand, Mercedes has now 4 engine specifications in the pool. 3 under the 1.2l rule, the latest under 0.9l. Depending on usage, they could still use some of the older specs where it might be advantageous?
Not for nothing, Rosberg's Championship is the only thing that lends credibility to Hamilton's recent success. Otherwise, he'd just be the guy who's had the best car. — bhall II
#Team44 supporter

matt_b
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Re: 2017 Italian Grand Prix - Monza, 1-3 September

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Phil wrote:
Fri Sep 01, 2017 12:48 pm
So according to AMuS; the engine situation is as follows:


*** (My speculation): Maybe Mercedes introduced specification 4 to have the ability to use the older models for other races under the old oil directive where it's necessary. No one dictates which engine has to be used at which venue. From what I understand, Mercedes has now 4 engine specifications in the pool. 3 under the 1.2l rule, the latest under 0.9l. Depending on usage, they could still use some of the older specs where it might be advantageous?
This might explain why they brought it ahead of time, so they can use their old spec 3 which has only done 2 races (Silverstone, Hungary) with the 1.2l usage. I think this is a smart call because it covers both interpretations for the oil usage.

Wynters
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Re: 2017 Italian Grand Prix - Monza, 1-3 September

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matt_b wrote:
Fri Sep 01, 2017 1:21 pm
This might explain why they brought it ahead of time, so they can use their old spec 3 which has only done 2 races (Silverstone, Hungary) with the 1.2l usage. I think this is a smart call because it covers both interpretations for the oil usage.
I think that's an astute observation.

wickedz50
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Re: 2017 Italian Grand Prix - Monza, 1-3 September

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What is the weather forecast for the race on Sunday?