2018 Bahrain Grand Prix - Sakhir, April 6-8

[Jolle]

Nothing about this little Max "adventure" makes me think he is any less of a driver I thought he was. If anything, it is probably exact opposite. With a tiny bit more maturity, he will make chumps out of other drivers on the track. Guy started 15th and in 2 laps was on Lewis gearbox. Had he gone a bit less aggressive in T1, he would have overtaken Lewis and half of field in front of him in span of 2 laps. He is talent that makes likes of Hamilton, Ric and Vettel scared. Reminds me of Lewis in his rookie year, he is just that good, if not better then anyone I've seen at that age.

It’s always risk vs reward. Hamilton was careful at the start. He knows he is battling for the championship, Bahrain being a track where overtaking would be easy. There was no point in trying to overtake the entire field within the first 4 corners. Arguably, Max was in a sinilar position, in a car that would easily finish in the top 6 even if he hadnt been that aggressive early on.

Similarly, Alonso was quite aggressive too, but again, being aggressive in a car that is in the midfield is a bit something else. Less to lose, more to gain.

I think Hamilton was great in the first few laps, showing just the right mix between aggressive but careful. He lost the place against Max, but i am pretty confident he would have gotten by the RedBull at a later stage of the race, if not on one of the straights. At the end of the day, Hamilton finished 3rd when perhaps 4th was the best he could have hoped for. That’s a big win. As it is, he is only trailing the championship lead by 17 points, when it could be more.

But Hamilton knows he's got the best car on the grid, the experience and confidence that at the end it will turn out OK. A few years back, when the McLaren he was driving was much like the RedBull of today, he ended up more then once in gravel traps with his front wheels pointing in different directions in the first few laps.

Verstappen is at a point in his career and in a car that you have to take risks. And combined with the current formula (very short braking zones), any outbraking, will be something like a dive bomb.

It wasn't his best move and in retrospect he would probably do it differently, but thats racing.

[Laserguru]

Dive bombing seems to be the only move max knows. Worse yet, he apparently hasn't learned that it's not always a good idea. Spa 2016 taught him nothing.

Then it’s at least exactly the same divebomb as Lewis makes little later on when passing Hulk and the 2 others (maybe even more extreme), where Lewis only lives to tell the tale because Hulk knows he lost the corner and backs out of that squable.

Are you calling this a divebomb? Not sure who would agree with you

This fits your definition! Where one does a dive bomb move and other backs off!
https://s18.postimg.org/df8rvqjgp/image.png

Noticed that HAM carries a higher speed into the corner vs VER? HAM stays on par with VER while HAM is on the outside corner radius, thus travels a larger distance hence higher speed.

The new definition of divebomb is: starting an overtake on the straight when passing the startline, being bullied and pushed off track on start pitlane exit when your opponent sweeps 30 meters to the right off the racing line, be on par at corner entry without using DRS, carry less speed into the corner than your opponent, remain on par wheel to wheel on the apex, head in front on corner exit, claim the corner exit and bully and push your opponent in return and receive a hit on your left back wheel. Where being in front while cornering may change frame by frame as it is so close. (I am still confused on track limits since Charlie played with the the track limit rules so much).

Too much sarcasm, but I cannot see how VER did a divebomb. Claim the corner exit: yes he did, like many drivers do.

[GPR-A duplicate2]

The new definition of divebomb is:

You mean, how to justify your point!

[Laserguru]

Could someone help me please, what is the discussion again?

I guess people are discussing the racing incident between Hamilton and Verstappen.
They both could avoid the contact, at the moment of impact Hamilton had plenty space on the left, and Verstappen had plenty space on the right. Eventhough that Verstappen had to move to the left to not drive into Alonso I think they both could/should/would make te corner.

So both where wrong

Edit: And thats why there was no investigation at all...

Could not agree more, but we still have untill friday to discuss the race (incidents) and try to understand different opinions.

[Vettel165]

I see Mercedes overheating the rear US tyres on Q3. Is it really true, that Toto said, that Chinese GP is now a rear limited track not front?

For me the Chinese gp is a more tyre limited track than Bahrain, remember what happened in 2011,2013. Out of slow corners you need good traction, and a good aero efficiency in medium-high speed corners. Because if the car is slightly unbalanced and is sliding a little bit even the rears can get soon to overheating phase. I expect a 2 stop race.

[Laserguru]

The new definition of divebomb is:

You mean, how to justify your point!

Hmm considering the divebomb I just do not see it. But I took effort to describe how I observed the incident. If you can explain to me where I am wrong and where it becomes a divebomb I am all ears.

[foxmulder_ms]

Sure you are allowed 2 wheels over the white line, but the fact remains that over the white line is off track, and if Lewis went wider, It would mean Max pushed Lewis off track, and thats not allowed in that situation.

- "Not allowed" meaning my favourite driver was pushed? Hamilton sent Rosberg off (two wheels) in USA, Canada and Japan. I guess that was allowed? A. pushing off was secondary, B. you don't need two wheels for it to be illegal (imagine sand or a wall, kerb is enough) C. It was a case of causing collision if anything but good luck with Whiting even touching that.

- The only important part is that it was a clumsy, low skills attempt:
* jump, outbrake yourself late and at an angle you can't take a corner quickly enough with the other car on the outside
* notice the other car inside (Alonso), no second option, panic, although I suspect it would be easier (space) but simillar in terms of angle/pace without it
* panic steer left (partially forced, you can't take a corner without slowing down/losing advantage, example Hungary '17)
* overtake through collision/game of chicken not skills, survive or not, it was no different to three overtakes through collision in Monza '17, Abu Dhabi vs Hulkenberg start, Singapore '17 or some others.

Enough about that. What's the point of fake unsafe release penalties? That was as unsafe as it can be and the cost is zero. Stop pretending Charlie Whiting.

Dude, you are wrong.

If you follow the racing line then the guy outside has to back off, otherwise you are pushing the guy off the track.

Vetappen is miles away from the racing line, he is intentionally cutting Lewis off. And, Lewis actually behaved too well if you ask me, he could have defen his line more aggressively, he went to the furthest left without leaving the track limits. What else do you expect from him??? Vetappen just kept pushing him further and further. KARMA is goood.

[dans79]

Hmm considering the divebomb I just do not see it. But I took effort to describe how I observed the incident. If you can explain to me where I am wrong and where it becomes a divebomb I am all ears.

A divebomb is when you run up the inside, and attempt a pass that has a high probability of not succeeding. People usually add that you only give the driver you are overtaking the option to give way, or have an accident. Its an all or nothing move.

watch the higlights video. play it at 1/4th speed if needed. make sure to watch the feed from turn 1 and Max's onboard.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DIm2cqy7-AI

When max attempts to pass Lewis pushes to the inside of the strait. Once he gets alongside, Lewis goes left to within half a meter or so of the line before turning in. Most likely because he was planing to try a cut back, or just to get better power down out of the turn.

As they both start to turn in they are side by side. when they get to the apex Max isn't even ahead of Lewis. Additionally Lewis left him a car with at the apex. However as they reach the apex Max has an issue, a slow moving Alonso. At this point he has two options slow so he doesn't rear end Alonso, or try and push Lewis off track, he chose the later. It was a stupid decision and why it's a bomb. Not to mention it's obvious from the onboard that they were going to catch Alonso in a way not good for max.


when Lewis overtakes 3 cars, he is already half a car length to 3/4ths of a car length in front of Nico when they reach the apex. By the time they exit the turn he is 100% in front.

[Laserguru]

Hmm considering the divebomb I just do not see it. But I took effort to describe how I observed the incident. If you can explain to me where I am wrong and where it becomes a divebomb I am all ears.

A divebomb is when you run up the inside, and attempt a pass that has a high probability of not succeeding. People usually add that you only give the driver you are overtaking the option to give way, or have an accident. Its an all or nothing move.

...

when Lewis overtakes 3 cars, he is already half a car length to 3/4ths of a car length in front of Nico when they reach the apex. By the time they exit the turn he is 100% in front.

Your divebomb definition works fine for me. The high probability part causes our disagreement, this is a subjective phrase open for interpretation and discussion.

We divert most on the moment where you conclude it to be a divebomb. At that point I consider the pass done. HAM claimed he backed off, VER claimed he left enough space. But still they collide.

If I would judge it a divebomb then VER would have had no other option than to run HAM off beyond the apex, caused by poor judgement on corner entry. He clearly is in control, had a choice, even made a choice by reasoning, left sufficient space to his opinion, so no divebomb to me. Aggressive but not uncontrolled or unlikely to succeed. Unlike a typical Torpedo divebomb who locks up or loses control and is a passenger riding his car into his opponent.

The camera position opposite to the straight (official f1 video here’s what happened in 60 breathless seconds, slomo at 16 seconds) confirms (to my opinion) both are right: HAM has space left when they collide: all 4 wheels are clearly visible on track... Still they collide. Both drivers could have avoided the clash but choose not to. VER could have easily left more space, no need to run this wide even when ALO was on the inside (at corner entry), HAM could have used the space already available (again my opinion).

Maybe VER indeed planned a cutback, which is what most drivers did in corner 1, but decided to claim the corner exit (which by itself is a strange but common habbit in f1) once the overtake materialised which made the cutback obsolete.

Anyhow, this is my opinion, and I respect your opinion. Good arguments and reasoning. Curious to the reasoning of the fia officials though.

The overtake Hamilton made was spectacular, have seen it more in lower categories. He benefits from a massive double tow on the second overtake. Never seen it in f1 though, at least not that I can recall. Big and rare mistake from Ocon.

[TAG]

The question is, did Verstappen learn anything from the incident? I'm not entirely sure he left Bahrain any wiser. He should thank his lucky stars that Ricciardo's car died, otherwise he may have been faced with a second year with a deficit to his teammate.

[NathanOlder]

He would have learned the same as he did in previous mistakes. This is why he wont win a title yet. The trouble is, when he does finally learn, it may take a little out of his ability to overtake.

[George-Jung]

Hahaha.. you guys are funny man.

Senna is concidered to be the best of all time- sure as hell that he would be supporting Verstappen.

[marvin78]

And why is that?

Senna was not known for supporting people who don't respect anyone or anything.

[djones]

Yeah Senna certainly respected his fellow opponents.



..... Oh wait.

[bonjon1979]

This was the point of contact, I would hardly say Hamilton had plenty of space on the left, his front wheel was on the white line! And looking at the line max was taking, he was coming over more to the left at that point, he was straightening out his car. It wasnt Hamilton moving right.

https://i.imgur.com/z6Fi3mf.jpg


https://i.imgur.com/68cCatK.jpg

For sure Hamilton didn’t gave an inch.. you are allowed to cross the with line with two wheels.. so no harm in doing that right there..

But hé, ifs and buts..

At least it has set the tone for the remainder of the season- who’s going to ‘swallow’ next time?

Good point about the two wheels thing. It’d be interesting to hear what the actual definition of leaving a cars width is. Is it to the edge of the track? Or beyond? It kind of has to be to the white line surely? Otherwise could you imagine how dangerous it could be on a high speed part of the track, you can push them off beyond the white line and onto the grass/Astro?

I also think there is an element of Hamilton making sure Verstappen knows he’s not going to be bullied by him. One wonders if he’ll try such a move again.