Lewis Hamilton has won his first race of the year, thanks to a very unfortunate retirement of Valtteri Bottas a few laps from the end. Kimi Raikkonen finished second for Ferrari, ahead of Perez who scores the first points of the season for Force India.
Yeah, Zac510 - you do of course realize - that 'Godwin's law' thing - is solely sardonic, right?
Senna's comment is a racing truism..
Do try & grasp the essential difference, esp' in this context..
I suppose you are right that it has been named sardonically, but in the way Godwin's Law is applied is always to try and squash an internet discussion by comparing the forum poster to some aspect of Nazi-ism with an association fallacy. This user is using the Senna quote in the same way. If you disagree with the quote, you disagree with Senna and then you mustn't either be a true racer [or racing fan and shame on you], which is also an association fallacy.
Actually, it is rather - a matter of validity.
Senna's remark is 100% valid, & stands as - an exemplar of - racing lore..
But 'Godwin's law' is merely an ironic, if nowadays, hackneyed - joke..
..which some (sarcastically perhaps), trot out - (as a 'cock-blocking' ploy) to assert a spurious 'moral authority'..
Well said - your last point on moral authority, is exactly what I was try to say, but put clearer. People use this Senna quote in the same way, to create some moral authority.
We all who watch F1 objectively know that there are more than one way to win (race or a championship) and it doesn't mean constantly going for gaps.
What I don't understand is the clear entitlement that Max Verstappen shows. If he came into F1 on the back of great level championships I could understand it.
You have to blame Jos to a degree for clearly not grounding him properly. But then Jos's career was exactly stellar either. The Verstappen hype in general is just weird.
Max has talent I agree but his wild and unpredictable and he IS going to hurt somebody, the fact that the FIA seem unable or willing to clip his wings just adds to the weirdness.
Last edited by Restomaniac on 01 May 2018, 08:40, edited 1 time in total.
I suppose you are right that it has been named sardonically, but in the way Godwin's Law is applied is always to try and squash an internet discussion by comparing the forum poster to some aspect of Nazi-ism with an association fallacy. This user is using the Senna quote in the same way. If you disagree with the quote, you disagree with Senna and then you mustn't either be a true racer [or racing fan and shame on you], which is also an association fallacy.
Actually, it is rather - a matter of validity.
Senna's remark is 100% valid, & stands as - an exemplar of - racing lore..
But 'Godwin's law' is merely an ironic, if nowadays, hackneyed - joke..
..which some (sarcastically perhaps), trot out - (as a 'cock-blocking' ploy) to assert a spurious 'moral authority'..
Well said - your last point on moral authority, is exactly what I was try to say, but put clearer. People use this Senna quote in the same way, to create some moral authority.
We all who watch F1 objectively know that there are more than one way to win (race or a championship) and it doesn't mean constantly going for gaps.
I agree with regard to winning championships and I made this point with regard to Vettel during the race.
When you are leading the WDC why oh why do you divebomb on cold tyres when your main challenger is behind you? Play the long game and think of the championship in much the same way as he should have done so in Singapore last year. Vettel can be too hot headed at times and he is now old enough to know better.
Wow?!! The video is just there?!!
Please show me where I see things as I want them to see..
The whole back straight Max drove on the left.. so that was his racing line, he moves a bit to the middle and moves back to his racing line, which was the left side at the time.
How hard can it be?
What part of one move only don't you understand?
I think it's pretty clear that GJ can't see clearly due to the heavy orange tint of his glasses which are distorting his vision!
Correct, but in the meantime nobody have shown me the multiple moves (weaving) Max supposedly made..
I think it is probably easier to blame me of being biased- well done.
Perhaps someone can explain to me how you are allowed to go back to your original position (after the one defensive move) without moving?
My opinion is that this crash was not Max’s fault- but I do think that the wheel banging incident was Max’s fault and should be discussed within the team more, because there he almost put Ricciardo in the wall- which isn’t nice to do and certainly not to a teammate.
George, do you understand how the driver in front is defending? (forget about the ultimate racing line now for once)
1. defender is positioning himself middle-ish of the track, to have an option to shut either the inside or the outside door
2. he is waiting for the overtaker to make his decision, BEFORE the braking zone even starts
so the defender has chosen that his racing line is in the middle now, the overtaker can go either way, since he isn't bound by any specific rules at this point
3. the overtaker tries to trick the defender into making his only defensive move allowed - shutting either outside or inside door, which in turn forces the overtaker to chose his line
Dan at this point moved to the outside, Max followed (this is the singe defensive move allowed)
Dan does the cross over, Max does his second defensive move (which is why the rule exists) to follow Dan again and shut the door on the inside to what Dan has already committed to
at this point Dan has 0 options left, he was about to start braking (remember, he needs longer braking distance, since the inside line is tighter, less speed at the apex, and he was already faster than Max coming into the corner after the DRS and slipstream), the moment Max moves in front of him and starts to decelerate - it is all over for Dan, if he would have moved more to the left, I bet that Max would move even further left, there would never EVER be any 1 car gap there, and in that case Dans front goes on Maxes rear tire and Dan goes airborne, instead we got lucky and this didn't happen
What Max could and should have done, was force Dan into the max tightest line possible while NOT blocking him, forcing him to go really slow during the apex (caused by the tight entry trajectory), meanwhile moving towards the ideal racing line himself, brake less, carry way more speed and pass Dan on the left on the exit, which puts him in favorable position for the next corner as well (lefthander), becauce he will be in good position to defend - this is what a sensible driver would do, and Max is still yet to learn that, it is supposed to be taught in the "younger" formula series, so mistakes like these don't happen with the big boy cars, but he skipped most of that learning period, didn't he?
Not a long time ago mistakes like these would may have been lethal (granted Dan would probably never try to make such an overtake), but todays safe cars mask the danger of incidents like these in order to draw younger audience in with a green teenage driver, that no one seems to be able to reason with in fear that the show may become less entertaining, which is a bit sad
Now regarding the respect - if the defender is a respectable driver, who not just receives respect, but gives it as well, would never ever shut a door like this, because then he will know to expect the same thing from the others, so he can make the same move without fear in case the need arises - and this is what Dan is counting on when he pulls off his fantastic overtakes, Max on the other hand has 1 defensive move - block the other guy from getting beside him by doing multiple direction changes supposedly before the braking starts, or he simply runs the other out of road on the exit (tried to put Dan in the wall when he chose to hit him, luckily this time tire on tire), so he basically gives 0 respect to other drivers, and when the inevitable crashes happen - they always seem to be caused by the other guy, because "if you no longer go for the gap, you're no racing driver" BS argument
You do put forward your opinion very well,I just don’t agree with it.
Max positioned himself left of the track.. from there on made the defensive move to the right/middle.. and went back to his original position to the left- which is allowed- as long as you do not run someone of the track, incase someone is besides you.
HE DID NOT RETURN TO HIS ORIGINAL POSITION, HE KEPT MOVING LEFT AND BLOCKED RIC - and you keep arguing that he had the right to keep moving left, since that is to the left on his defensive line which in your mind equals to 1 defensive move, when in the real world it is EXACTLY why that rule was written to prevent situations like this
WHEN?!?!?!?! are you going to understand that?!?!?!
Even FIA said Max made 2 moves and then go on and not penalize him, that reprimand was total BS, he should have gotten 5-10 or whatever place grid penalty to make him learn that it was a mistake, now he thinks it was ok, since the overtaker got reprimanded as well
you see, there is only 1 reason why they would do it - to keep the show going, and sooner or later someone will go flying, and then again it will not be Maxes fault, and you know, FIA is all about safety...
this is why I get so angry with people still trying to defend Max here
Last edited by jz11 on 01 May 2018, 10:20, edited 1 time in total.
What you are suggesting is that it is smart racing to block cars at significantly higher speed behind you by moving into their path. This is what you would call “blocking” and it isnt allowed.
Try doing something like that on the highway, moving into the path of a much faster car and see what happens.
Max did this not only once, but twice. What did you expect Dan to do?
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I think it's pretty clear that GJ can't see clearly due to the heavy orange tint of his glasses which are distorting his vision!
Correct, but in the meantime nobody have shown me the multiple moves (weaving) Max supposedly made..
I think it is probably easier to blame me of being biased- well done.
Perhaps someone can explain to me how you are allowed to go back to your original position (after the one defensive move) without moving?
My opinion is that this crash was not Max’s fault- but I do think that the wheel banging incident was Max’s fault and should be discussed within the team more, because there he almost put Ricciardo in the wall- which isn’t nice to do and certainly not to a teammate.
The second move by Max is a fact, Ross Brawn even used it to highlight the need to simplify front wings!
But I would like to highlight a technical point. Once Daniel had settled for his line, and Max had changed direction once more, the Australian suddenly had to cope with a car that was very light at the front end due to the turbulent air generated by the leading Red Bull.
“In these conditions Daniel was no more than a passenger with few, if any, options to manage the situation: he could not change direction and the hard braking he tried would have had little chance of success.
Senna's remark is 100% valid, & stands as - an exemplar of - racing lore..
But 'Godwin's law' is merely an ironic, if nowadays, hackneyed - joke..
..which some (sarcastically perhaps), trot out - (as a 'cock-blocking' ploy) to assert a spurious 'moral authority'..
Well said - your last point on moral authority, is exactly what I was try to say, but put clearer. People use this Senna quote in the same way, to create some moral authority.
We all who watch F1 objectively know that there are more than one way to win (race or a championship) and it doesn't mean constantly going for gaps.
I agree with regard to winning championships and I made this point with regard to Vettel during the race.
When you are leading the WDC why oh why do you divebomb on cold tyres when your main challenger is behind you? Play the long game and think of the championship in much the same way as he should have done so in Singapore last year. Vettel can be too hot headed at times and he is now old enough to know better.
I don't think it was divebomb. Ham and Rai were on his right already. He feared being overtaken by Hamilton and also after the race Vettel said that he couldn't see breaking point reference on the right because there were Ham and Rai.
Well said - your last point on moral authority, is exactly what I was try to say, but put clearer. People use this Senna quote in the same way, to create some moral authority.
We all who watch F1 objectively know that there are more than one way to win (race or a championship) and it doesn't mean constantly going for gaps.
I agree with regard to winning championships and I made this point with regard to Vettel during the race.
When you are leading the WDC why oh why do you divebomb on cold tyres when your main challenger is behind you? Play the long game and think of the championship in much the same way as he should have done so in Singapore last year. Vettel can be too hot headed at times and he is now old enough to know better.
I don't think it was divebomb. Ham and Rai were on his right already. He feared being overtaken by Hamilton and also after the race Vettel said that he couldn't see breaking point reference on the right because there were Ham and Rai.
In context it is.
He had no idea how much grip he had. He hadn't ran the US on that cold track, he hadn't ran those tyres at full speed, he had no idea just how much the clear sub optimal tyre temperatures would effect his braking distances. In essence he had no idea of his braking distances. What he then tried to do was sling it up the inside with no idea if it would stick. The fact he admitted he then had no braking reference due to his quite frankly extraordinary position given everything above doesn't help his argument.
There is a world of difference between to quote Ricciardo 'licking the stamp and sending it' on hot tyres that you have been running for a while and tyres that you really have no clue about in full race speed and temps never mind when they are cold.
Last edited by Restomaniac on 01 May 2018, 11:54, edited 1 time in total.
What you are suggesting is that it is smart racing to block cars at significantly higher speed behind you by moving into their path. This is what you would call “blocking” and it isnt allowed.
Try doing something like that on the highway, moving into the path of a much faster car and see what happens.
Max did this not only once, but twice. What did you expect Dan to do?
Go around the outside, only option he had. Max will never give the inside line up for free. The moves were minor enough to warrant them valid , the head on camera shot is the most clear imho. Ric should have just tried the outside again, like he tried several times before.
Just out of interest, what do the Verstappen fans want ? A Ricciardo penalty ?
I guess that would be the only way Max could beat Ric in a championship. He's proven that over the last 2 years
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Just out of interest, what do the Verstappen fans want ? A Ricciardo penalty ?
I guess that would be the only way Max could beat Ric in a championship. He's proven that over the last 2 years
OK, ignoring the snide, I'll bite; He hasn't proven that at all, and you know it, or at least Hamilton does and that is a driver you do seem to respect. Verstappen fans would like a mature discussion, without screaming, yelling, using big fat "weaving all over the place" expressions that are simply very overstated. Or at least, this specific fan would like to see that. Especially on this forum. there are so many forums where the other options are abundantly available.
I think that as this was still Verstappen's first lap (out lap was just about completed when the crash happened) on the still relatively cold ultras (Ricc first full lap (when his own ultras were still cold) was also much slower then Max last (in)lap on the worn Supersofts, hence the overcut, Max also posted some blistering fast times in that lap though, so the tire temp was a big factor in the speed the first say 1 2 laps (building it up) and I think Ric (and Max) also knew this (imho). Ric went for the inside line as around the outside had been proven very tough to make happen. Had he not make the overtake happen Max' ultras would have also been warming up by that time and I think Max would then have been able to make a gap to get Ric outside DRS. just like before in the race when the Renaults disappeared max also pulled a gap on Ric (until he got stuck behind Hamilton on the softs, gaining in sector 2 but the Merc still pulling away on the straight). Ric wanted to show Max who is boss and likely this was the last chance.
Max just didn't fall for the dummy (but he wanted to make any actual passing around the outside as hard as possible as well) I think Ric should have seen this coming as well. Not for a reason the stewards (with Connelly included) confirmed both the minor moving (their words, but I guess they are then also "delusional Max fans" or whichever derogatory term is being flung this time) as well as Ric simply being too late to throw a dummy like that.
What Verstappen fans want (would like) is a fair, balanced judgement or even discussion. I know Max is hard, maybe still a bit too hard (the wheelbang moment was his mistake) but at this point in the race (with his ultras warming up) I understand he battled like he did. Earlier on he could have let Ric go, but to be fair, he did also defend him a few times (very hard) but totally fair, it is just that if you then do have a lock up, yes , then it is your mistake, your risk. Ric f.e. also shut the door quite hard at race start in turn 1.
Baku is just a very peculiar track, you already have a big fat tow and then DRS opens as an added bonus, it is just a very big difference (between equally engined cars (or let alone more powerfully engined cars) making it very hard to defend.
