2018 Azerbaijan Grand Prix - Baku, April 27-29

[Andres125sx]

lol this thread cannot have any discussion outside of max vs ric

Vettel, I disagree about the bad luck, it was his mistake what prevented his victory, not the luck.

Are you kidding? He made ONE mistake and it's even arguable it was a real mistake. He saw the gap and went for it. A bit of gambling because he didn't know the temperature of the tyres.
Without Safety Car all these things would have not happened in the first place.

How ignorant to tell that it was all Vettel's fault.

Ignorant is insinuating going way too long, and making a deep flatspot on your tires is NOT a real mistake in F1

SC are part of racing, it´s boring reading so many ifs. Fact is, there was a SC wich is the same for all of them, and Vettel made a huge mistake loosing positions and ruining his tires. End of story.

[Andres125sx]

Vettel, I disagree about the bad luck, it was his mistake what prevented his victory, not the luck.

Are you kidding? He made ONE mistake and it's even arguable it was a real mistake. He saw the gap and went for it. A bit of gambling because he didn't know the temperature of the tyres.
Without Safety Car all these things would have not happened in the first place.

How ignorant to tell that it was all Vettel's fault.

He is Alonso fan.

Yes I am. But how this affect Vettel mistakes? If I become Vettel fan then the mistake will instantly evaporate?

Edit Thunder Toned down

[Wynters]

I see that this year's Baku GP is following last year's approach where we see some forum members suffering from 'Baku Blindness'. It's a strange condition where these members (and we are all at risk of infection) refuse to see what several high-speed, high-def cameras clearly show or, if they do see it, their fever forces them to come up with bizarre explanations. Last year we saw the truly amazing "Perhaps Vettel forget to steer", this year "Max moved twice but he didn't make two moves and, even if he did, the racing line is where ever he is so, really, he didn't move at all when moving."

Studies show that Baku Blindness clears up in a couple of weeks and that the best way to treat it in the mean time is to politely ignore those suffering from its blight.

[Raleigh]

Max fell for the dummy and then reacted after the event by coming back over onto Ricciardo's line. I know there has been some discussion of Daniel should have known Max would defend like that but equally Max should have been aware that if he closes the door on someone who is under full braking they will not be able to stop.

For all Max's speed he has no tactical thinking or awareness of when it's the right moment to attack or defend, this lack of maturity is costing him race wins and finishes which you cannot afford to throw away if you ever want to win a title.

[Jolle]

So, I've watched the crash now a few days later a few times in slowmotion.
- VER moves two times, first to counter the dummy on the outside, then moving to make the inside more difficult.
- In the move to the inside, he leaves just enough space for RIC to go to, from his car to the white line.
- RIC decides not to take that space, chickens out and wants to take the outside again but it too close to VER already

Indeed, like Lauda said, both to blame, but VER a bit more then RIC.

[Andres125sx]

@jz11,

You do put forward your opinion very well,I just don’t agree with it.

Max positioned himself left of the track.. from there on made the defensive move to the right/middle.. and went back to his original position to the left- which is allowed- as long as you do not run someone of the track, incase someone is besides you.

First you tried to ignore his second move, now you justify that as he went back to his original position


Only that the rules are pretty clear on this too, he should have left one car wide when going back to his original position, he didn´t and caused a crash.


Just imagine the opposite, Max trying to pass.... Hamilton for example. Max thanks to DRS and slipstream approach the braking zone much faster and looking for the gap. Then Lewis chose one side of the track (whatever) but when Max is going to make the pass, Lewis make a move to the oppossite side of the track, and after Max correct to the other side, Lewis also correct to the initial side and Max crash with him...

Who´s fault?

When someone is going to overtake you, doing a track scan, or track sweep (not sure how to say it in english) is not only illegal, it´s also dirty. There would be no overtakes at all if that is allowed

[Andres125sx]

So, I've watched the crash now a few days later a few times in slowmotion.
- VER moves two times, first to counter the dummy on the outside, then moving to make the inside more difficult.
- In the move to the inside, he leaves just enough space for RIC to go to, from his car to the white line.
- RIC decides not to take that space, chickens out and wants to take the outside again but it too close to VER already

Indeed, like Lauda said, both to blame, but VER a bit more then RIC.

That´s the problem, in slow motion everything looks easier. There was no time to react once Max make his final move to the left, he simply put himself in front of a faster car.

Perfect definition of blocking

[Jolle]

So, I've watched the crash now a few days later a few times in slowmotion.
- VER moves two times, first to counter the dummy on the outside, then moving to make the inside more difficult.
- In the move to the inside, he leaves just enough space for RIC to go to, from his car to the white line.
- RIC decides not to take that space, chickens out and wants to take the outside again but it too close to VER already

Indeed, like Lauda said, both to blame, but VER a bit more then RIC.

That´s the problem, in slow motion everything looks easier. There was no time to react once Max make his final move to the left, he simply put himself in front of a faster car.

Perfect definition of blocking

And that's why VER gets most of the blame. And if RIC would have not had that insight that he made a bit of a doo doo as wel, he would have been very vocal about VER's action (like last year), but he wasn't. They know that they f&cked up together.

[Phil]

What you are suggesting is that it is smart racing to block cars at significantly higher speed behind you by moving into their path. This is what you would call “blocking” and it isnt allowed.

Try doing something like that on the highway, moving into the path of a much faster car and see what happens.

Max did this not only once, but twice. What did you expect Dan to do?

Go around the outside, only option he had. Max will never give the inside line up for free. The moves were minor enough to warrant them valid , the head on camera shot is the most clear imho. Ric should have just tried the outside again, like he tried several times before.

You say that as if it were an option. The matter of fact however is that Dan had a driver ahead of him that was reacting to his moves. Dan went right, so did Max. At that point, the “outside” gap was closing. Assuming Dan had stayed on the outside and crashed into his team-mate there, everyone would be questioning why he didnt go for the inside where a gap was just opening. Dan did that, he went for the new gap that opened in a last, all-in, committed move. Only problem is, Max then changed direction as well and that gap then was closing too.

Are we finally seeing the problem here that is created when drivers move and change direction multiple times?

Coming back to the highway example: how late can you leave it to move directly into the path of a fast approaching car from behind, without risking him crashing into you?

[George-Jung]

First you tried to ignore his second move, now you justify that as he went back to his original position

Is it me, or are you trying to twist my words again?

Coming back to the highway example: how late can you leave it to move directly into the path of a fast approaching car from behind, without risking him crashing into you?

Are we really going to use this 'kitchen-logic'?

A Highway is not a race circuit, so you can't expect the same things..

On a circuit you are allowed to move "into the path" when ever you feel like, as long as it is one defensive move.

[djos]

First you tried to ignore his second move, now you justify that as he went back to his original position

Is it me, or are you trying to twist my words again?

Coming back to the highway example: how late can you leave it to move directly into the path of a fast approaching car from behind, without risking him crashing into you?

Are we really going to use this 'kitchen-logic'?

A Highway is not a race circuit, so you can't expect the same things..

On a circuit you are allowed to move "into the path" when ever you feel like, as long as it is one defensive move.

Looks like he's on the money to me, however you are too busy doing contorting yourself to support your untenable position.

[George-Jung]

this is why I get so angry with people still trying to defend Max here

No, you get angry because you can't stand the fact other people just don't agree..

[George-Jung]

Looks like he's on the money to me, however you are too busy doing contorting yourself to support your untenable position.

Ok, feel free to have a look through my posted messages.. and see it for yourself.
search.php?author_id=24680&sr=posts
But I guess you don't feel the need to do so of course.. it is easier to just blame people for sh*t.

[Phil]

On a circuit you are allowed to move "into the path" when ever you feel like, as long as it is one defensive move.

Think about what you are suggesting here. A car being allowed to move directly into the path of a car moving 20-30kmh faster? Yes, of course, that is good racing etiquette right there.

Fairly certain such driving would be punished quite severly if it were used as a defensive move. At the very least for ‘causing an avoidable accident’. Again “blocking” is not allowed in motorsport racing. It is at the very least forbidden under the article of the sporting regulations for driving erratic or dangerously.

And i am glad you are finally agreeing on the “one defensive move”. Since Max clearly moved twice, it seems we can finally put this to rest.

[Sieper]

The highway analogy Is not very helpful I think. I usually keep right (that is the norm here in mainland europe) to let faster people by and when I want to overtake a truck I wait for a gap and use my indicator to show other drivers (and ones I possibly missed) my intention. On a race track you race eachother, on a highway you lookout for eachother.

In a race as well to a certain degree but I still think Verstappen actually does that. For example in China, when behind Hamilton (Max and Ric on the fresh tires) in turn 7 If the roles would have been reversed I think Max would have tried to block Hamilton before the corner (like he did on Ric here in Baku) that is hard but still on the edge of fair (depending how you execute it and how you view that execution) but in any case, your intention is not to let the other by. But Hamilton waited for Max to get next to him and then let his car slip to the outside at the critical moment. A very shrewd and effective move (it cost max the victory) and was stupid of Max to attempt even (over confident) as you have to keep in mind who you are trying to pass but a move like that is imho, not so fair (but very effective nonetheless). Max has (hopefully) learned something from that. Now Ric has hopefully also learned that if you try to throw a dummy on Max you better time it to perfection.

Ric had the option to go round the outside like he did several times before in this very race, instead he tried a dummy this time around, it wasn't really possible at that time anymore. I also think both drivers did not expect that the braking power (of the rearmost car) was lost to such a degree when closing in.