Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

All that has to do with the power train, gearbox, clutch, fuels and lubricants, etc. Generally the mechanical side of Formula One.
turbof1
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit

Post by turbof1 » Mon Jul 09, 2018 7:12 pm

Big Tea wrote:
Mon Jul 09, 2018 7:04 pm
turbof1 wrote:
Mon Jul 09, 2018 6:55 pm
There are also gains in the ES to mgu-h department in there. energy interaction between ES and mu-h is unlimited, meaning if the mgu-h is able to generate more energy, more energy can be dedicated for spooling up the turbo through the mgu-h, on top of a constant mgu-k 160bhp.
It may be just the way he phrases it , but does he say electricity is generated before the engine?
Is this an extra generator unit in the intake side?
If I am correct, the turbine of turbocharger is driven by exhaust gasses, which also powers the mgu-h. That would put generation before the engine if you look at it from that perspective?
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Big Tea
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit

Post by Big Tea » Mon Jul 09, 2018 7:15 pm

turbof1 wrote:
Mon Jul 09, 2018 7:12 pm
Big Tea wrote:
Mon Jul 09, 2018 7:04 pm
turbof1 wrote:
Mon Jul 09, 2018 6:55 pm
There are also gains in the ES to mgu-h department in there. energy interaction between ES and mu-h is unlimited, meaning if the mgu-h is able to generate more energy, more energy can be dedicated for spooling up the turbo through the mgu-h, on top of a constant mgu-k 160bhp.
It may be just the way he phrases it , but does he say electricity is generated before the engine?
Is this an extra generator unit in the intake side?
If I am correct, the turbine of turbocharger is driven by exhaust gasses, which also powers the mgu-h. That would put generation before the engine if you look at it from that perspective?
Of course. It just seemed to not 'match' if you know what I mean.
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MtthsMlw
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit

Post by MtthsMlw » Mon Jul 09, 2018 8:10 pm

Any information on since when they were doing that (if it's true at all which would be very interesting) since launch, spec 2 or sometime in between via software update?
EDIT:
I guess since Canada (spec 2) because Kimi got his third TC there.
Last edited by MtthsMlw on Mon Jul 09, 2018 8:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Ferrari Power Unit

Post by roon » Mon Jul 09, 2018 8:48 pm

I don't think it would be achievable via software alone. To me it implies hardware. Might be since launch because they've been good on power all year, and the major changes to the engines this season were in response to regulation changes imposed last year. With oil consumption and fuel buffering now limited the development focus becomes ever more so about combustion and H capabilities, so perhaps that's where the red team prevail (as implied by Rosberg).

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Re: Ferrari Power Unit

Post by atanatizante » Mon Jul 09, 2018 9:42 pm

roon wrote:
Mon Jul 09, 2018 6:32 pm
atanatizante wrote:
Mon Jul 09, 2018 6:09 pm
I don`t know if that`s an old topic or the right thread in order to get some advised answer regarding what Nico Rosberg said about Ferrari have found in their ERS area but I`ll give it a go ...

This is the first part https://streamable.com/hg6gd

And here he elaborates further on: https://streamable.com/vh89e

From my understanding he speaks something about MGU-H, right? We knew that is allowed to have maximum 120kw/160hp for only 33 sec. and that`s 4MJ from which the only 2MJ could be provided from MGU-K. Nowhere said that they aren`t allowed to deploy 159HP for the rest of the time, isn`t it? Just to have the appropriate MGU-H in order to let them have that amount of power … so that`s it? Do they have a better “H”?
4MJ maximum per lap from ES to MGUK.

Unlimited MJ per lap from MGUH to MGUK.

MGUK delivery capped at 120kW/160hp at all times.

What he's implying is that their MGUK can deliver its max output of 120kW/160hp at all times during a lap. Implicit in the suggestion is that other teams can't sustain their MGUK in the same way, either using them less often or at a lower output.

Put more simply:

Ferrari: ICE output + 160hp constant
Other teams: ICE output + 160hp or less, intermittently

His claims about the Ferrari unit operating at a 'higher pressure' could indicate greater mass flow through the engine, implying Ferrari are able to run higher air-fuel ratios and more efficiently operate their compressor and turbine. That's how you could get beyond 4 MJ per lap delivered to the K.

There are no power limits for the MGUH. It could be 500hp for all we know. Correct me if I'm wrong. A greater-than-MGUK-output MGUH combined with sufficient ICE performance could keep the K sustained on its own, without resorting to Honda's ES>H>K type energy flow path.

Making more ICE power seems like it would go hand in hand with designing a bigger H capable of sustaining the K full time. As ICE output increases, max K run time increases. That could be the current development situation and could explain Ferrari's lead. Beyond this HP gains will be from the ICE only. Which might explain the interest in dropping the H in 2020. All the knowledge gained since 2014 will allow continued DI turbo ICE efficiency development, without the complexity, cost, and weight of compounding. Because there was going to be a point where ICE gains were going to surpass the development potential of the as-regulated electrical turbo-compounding.

P.S. I can't vouch for the truthfulness of the statements made in the video.
Image

If I`m not wrong, from the above diagram, my understanding is that 4MJ is the max. amount of energy that could be deployed per lap just from ES through MGU-K to the drivetrain. But what is more important is to notice is the energy coming from MGU-H to MGU-K which is unlimited ...

So I could see 3 scenarios:

Ferrari : ICE output + >160hp (33sec. just 160HP)
Mercedes : ICE output + 160hp constant
Other teams: ICE output + 160hp or less, intermittently

And is worth to mention that those above figures are PU max. outputs that could be used only for that special Q3 mode or special moments like overtaking or restarts ...
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MtthsMlw
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit

Post by MtthsMlw » Mon Jul 09, 2018 9:48 pm

atanatizante wrote:
Mon Jul 09, 2018 9:42 pm
Ferrari : ICE output + >160hp (33sec. just 160HP)
Can you explain that further? Going over 160hp wouldn't be allowed, right? That would bring us back to the investigation after Baku.

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Re: Ferrari Power Unit

Post by Mr.G » Mon Jul 09, 2018 9:55 pm

MtthsMlw wrote:
Mon Jul 09, 2018 9:48 pm
atanatizante wrote:
Mon Jul 09, 2018 9:42 pm
Ferrari : ICE output + >160hp (33sec. just 160HP)
Can you explain that further? Going over 160hp wouldn't be allowed, right? That would bring us back to investigation after Baku.
You are limited only to put the energy to MGU-K so you can use the rest of the energy to improve the PU dynamics - keep your turbo spooling by the excess energy to have the PU more agile...
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit

Post by roon » Mon Jul 09, 2018 10:08 pm

atanatizante wrote:
Mon Jul 09, 2018 9:42 pm
Ferrari : ICE output + >160hp (33sec. just 160HP)
The MGUK cannot deliver more than 120kW/160hp, period. Look at the graph you posted, on the line between MGUK<----->engine. If there was a loophole so big as to allow greater K output after 4MJ was consumed at a lower rate, there would be huge K units installed on the engines four years ago, limited only by weight, ES supply, and CoG, making hundreds or thousands of HP.

atanatizante wrote:
Mon Jul 09, 2018 9:42 pm
And is worth to mention that those above figures are PU max. outputs that could be used only for that special Q3 mode or special moments like overtaking or restarts ...
There are no regulations regarding when different engine maps can be used.

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Re: Ferrari Power Unit

Post by CriXus » Mon Jul 09, 2018 10:26 pm

The diagram states the flow from MGU-H to MGU-K is unlimited (Rosberg calls it "energy for free"). I think what is going on is, that through better TC (better MGU-H) Ferrari are able to have those 120kw for more time throughout the lap. The energy from ES to MGU-K is limited (4MJ) per lap, but who says that Ferrari are not sending energy from MGU-H to MGU-K to engine.
Last edited by CriXus on Mon Jul 09, 2018 10:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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LM10
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit

Post by LM10 » Mon Jul 09, 2018 10:35 pm

Can we say that after 2021 regulation changes Ferrari won't be able to be in an advantage anymore (if they keep their upper hand regarding MGU-H usage until then) and will need to find other solutions?

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Re: Ferrari Power Unit

Post by Big Tea » Mon Jul 09, 2018 11:13 pm

Please bear with me as I am not sure what I am talking about really, but I'm going to try.

Am I right in thinking that below a reasonably high RPM the drive to the turbine would not be enough to drive the turbine and produce output to the K?

Is there any legal way some of the gas can bypass the cylinders and expand at a high rate keeping the H at high RPM at all times so having a constant feed to the K, at where I assume it would be most useful IE lower RPM?

I know it sounds a little like a perpetual motion machine, but... More power to drive the compressor gives more air available (more than is required for combustion) so it can drive the compressor harder etc

(I have just made myself look a plonker, havn't I :oops: )
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit

Post by roon » Mon Jul 09, 2018 11:30 pm

Mr. Tea:

All compressor charge air must be used for combustion within the engine, by regulation. Off throttle gas flow can be increased/energized via late ignition, avoiding piston power while maintaining turbine power somewhat. I don't know how commonly that is done, if at all.

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Re: Ferrari Power Unit

Post by Big Tea » Mon Jul 09, 2018 11:43 pm

roon wrote:
Mon Jul 09, 2018 11:30 pm
Mr. Tea:

All compressor charge air must be used for combustion within the engine, by regulation. Off throttle gas flow can be increased/energized via late ignition, avoiding piston power while maintaining turbine power somewhat. I don't know how commonly that is done, if at all.
As I feared, I look a dik now LOL I'm used to it.

If for instance there was sufficient valve overlap, would that not allow (relatively) cooler air into the hot exhaust. Would this be enough?
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit

Post by Zynerji » Tue Jul 10, 2018 3:41 am

These people are probably so far past our understanding on how to really squeeze these MGUK/H power that the real answers would blow our minds.

I wouldn't doubt if they were using crazy tech, like Microwave Rectennas to simply get around the "measurement at the terminal of the battery" and such.

Honestly, what they have been able to do with the hybrid tech is probably the single most road-relevant technology from the last 20 years.

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Re: Ferrari Power Unit

Post by saviour stivala » Tue Jul 10, 2018 4:50 am

CriXus wrote:
Mon Jul 09, 2018 10:26 pm
The diagram states the flow from MGU-H to MGU-K is unlimited (Rosberg calls it "energy for free"). I think what is going on is, that through better TC (better MGU-H) Ferrari are able to have those 120kw for more time throughout the lap. The energy from ES to MGU-K is limited (4MJ) per lap, but who says that Ferrari are not sending energy from MGU-H to MGU-K to engine.
No matter what is thrown at it and no matter the different interpretations, the "K" max deployment output to the crankshaft is gapped at a max of 16obhp for a max of 33.33 seconds per lap. what people seems to not understand is that any portion of the max deployment allowed at a corrisponding proportion of the max time allowed can be deployed all along the whole lap if the system is so capable. the unlimitted output of the "H" after satisfying the allowed output of the "K" can be diverted to "ES".