2018 Brazilian Grand Prix - Interlagos, 9-11 November

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Starscreamer
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Re: 2018 Brazilian Grand Prix - Interlagos, 9-11 November

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Manoah2u wrote:
Mon Nov 12, 2018 11:50 am
Max getting FIA punishment is BS. He should have had a official warning, no more no less.

Ocon was a total douchebag, whom is frustrated to the bone and destroyed Max' win. It doesn't matter whether or not Max should have left room, you DONT CAUSE A COLLISION and ocon was behind and should have bailed out right there. it was a useless move he was 2 laps behind and it would have not made any difference to the outcome.
it's repeating and repeating with Ocon.

Ocon should indeed be happy just having had a push. It was adrenaline and nothing more and i'm pretty sure his response to max provoked the push.

Piquet hit and kicked a driver. not first time some heated stuff happens.

Hell, knowing Max' father, Max behaved pretty well. Jos would have literally punched Ocon in the face. Hell, Jos even drove into his ex wife with his car.
So concidering Max' background, he behaved exceedingly restricted.

What would you guys think Senna had done?
I never thought agree with you but for this you get a plus +++ =D>
#33 2 THE MAX V3RSTAPP3N

Wynters
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Re: 2018 Brazilian Grand Prix - Interlagos, 9-11 November

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turbof1 wrote:
Mon Nov 12, 2018 12:02 pm
That being said, Ocon did put up an arrogant grin when Verstappen approached him. Not exactly helpful either.
That's pretty disappointing. It appears there's more than one child in the paddock. :(

Wynters
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Re: 2018 Brazilian Grand Prix - Interlagos, 9-11 November

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If you are absolutely certain that Ocon is to blame then think about these questions.

- Why did Max compromise his line into Turn 1 and dirty his tyres (compromising the rest of S1) when Ocon was coming up behind him? Why not stay on the racing line, let Ocon take the hit from having to dive down the inside, then get DRS and slipstream for S1 and S2 thus increasing his lead over Hamilton?

- Knowing Ocon was faster, in a different race and, most crucially, alongside him, why did Max cut across the apex at turn 2?

- Should Ocon have expected the race leader, who was deliberately driving much more slowly than usual (conserving fuel/tyre/engine), to shut the door at the end of the straight and then try to cut across him at the next corner? Or were these unexpected actions for a race leader?

- Do you think Hamilton/Vettel/Raikonnen/etc would've done the same as Max that lap? If not, why do you think they would've behaved differently?

Fulcrum
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Re: 2018 Brazilian Grand Prix - Interlagos, 9-11 November

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The problem with Verstappen is his ego, or entitlement, is the size of StarScreamers avatar's helmet; big, and disproportionately so. Marko and Daddy remain poor influences for his developing talent, and the FIA have fallen over themselves to avoid chastising him where it counts - on track, with penalties.

Next year could be very interesting if Honda produce a competitive engine, but Max's first instinct to defend, or attack, at all costs needs to be tempered; or at least varied. Simply rushing toward contact becomes predictable, and his peers will adapt quickly if he remains as 1-dimensional in the future.

bonjon1979
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Re: 2018 Brazilian Grand Prix - Interlagos, 9-11 November

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The whole incident was a tough one to understand. Ocon was clearly faster and from watching his onboard he had so much more speed than verstappen he had to go past him or slam the anchors on. But at the same time, going to the outside is a lot riskier for both drivers. Then again, why Max didn't see him coming and let him through on the inside is again very confusing. Ocon had faster tyres and was in a completely differnet race. Max was defending as if it were for position and really should've given more room. While Ocon's move might have instigated the accident, Max made sure there was one by closing the door on him. Just open up the wheel a little bit and let him through. Madness really.

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Sierra117
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Re: 2018 Brazilian Grand Prix - Interlagos, 9-11 November

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turbof1 wrote:
Mon Nov 12, 2018 12:02 pm
Sierra117 wrote:
Mon Nov 12, 2018 11:53 am
turbof1 wrote:
Mon Nov 12, 2018 11:49 am

Curious that Max barely calmed down between the accident and the end of the race. There was like half a race distance between it I believe? Also yes the team in no way contributed to keep things from exploding. Verstappen telling how he felt on the after race inlap should have been a red flag.
Amusingly, he says he hopes not to find Ocon in the paddock, then proceeds to look for him himself ... kid needs someone in his corner who can keep his head cool.
It was Hamilton after the race trying to give Verstappen some perspective. This really should have come from the team. There's nothing wrong with being angry, and from Verstappen's perspective I agree Ocon should not have been there. But Verstappen has to avoid this behaviour. Roberto Fenati had a lot less credit with his ex-current and -future teams and paid the price for not controlling his anger.

That being said, Ocon did put up an arrogant grin when Verstappen approached him. Not exactly helpful either.
Thing that set Ayrton apart was he came out next day and emphasised how nothing justified hitting Eddie. He may be angry several weeks later but he was able to admit his mistake.

Also, Ocon didn't just grin at Max. Max first confronted him, said something, which clearly amused Ocon. His 'grin' was the sort of grin one makes when hearing something incredulous. Like a "say what?" kind of scenario in today's vernacular.
Last edited by Sierra117 on Mon Nov 12, 2018 12:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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turbof1
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Re: 2018 Brazilian Grand Prix - Interlagos, 9-11 November

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WaikeCU wrote:
Mon Nov 12, 2018 12:10 pm
Sierra117 wrote:
Mon Nov 12, 2018 11:53 am
turbof1 wrote:
Mon Nov 12, 2018 11:49 am

Curious that Max barely calmed down between the accident and the end of the race. There was like half a race distance between it I believe? Also yes the team in no way contributed to keep things from exploding. Verstappen telling how he felt on the after race inlap should have been a red flag.
Amusingly, he says he hopes not to find Ocon in the paddock, then proceeds to look for him himself ... kid needs someone in his corner who can keep his head cool.
Well tbh, Max' behaviour can shine a light on his growth and his potential. Yes, he's quick and can win races, but if he keeps making mistakes without a Championship on the line, imagine if he's in Championship contention... and he recklessly punts other Championship contenders off the track due to pressure. What will happen then? It's his 4th season for god sakes...

Honestly, I thought he could cope well under pressure, but this season the race in COTA I noticed him making a mistake due to pressure when Lewis wasn't even attempting an overtake at all that very moment in the latter stages of the race.
In all honesty, there's too much fuss being made about the gravity of the error. Hamilton in 2011 was making more mistakes and that was his 5th season. The most important thing is that Verstappen reflects on it, and maybe should also push for a clarification. Unlapping happens rarely, and it's not clear beyond "a driver is allowed to unlap him- or herself" what is allowed and not allowed. Clearly the normal rules don't apply, but what does?
#AeroFrodo

TwanV
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Re: 2018 Brazilian Grand Prix - Interlagos, 9-11 November

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Wynters wrote:
Mon Nov 12, 2018 12:14 pm
If you are absolutely certain that Ocon is to blame then think about these questions.

- Why did Max compromise his line into Turn 1 and dirty his tyres (compromising the rest of S1) when Ocon was coming up behind him? Why not stay on the racing line, let Ocon take the hit from having to dive down the inside, then get DRS and slipstream for S1 and S2 thus increasing his lead over Hamilton?

- Knowing Ocon was faster, in a different race and, most crucially, alongside him, why did Max cut across the apex at turn 2?

- Should Ocon have expected the race leader, who was deliberately driving much more slowly than usual (conserving fuel/tyre/engine), to shut the door at the end of the straight and then try to cut across him at the next corner? Or were these unexpected actions for a race leader?

- Do you think Hamilton/Vettel/Raikonnen/etc would've done the same as Max that lap? If not, why do you think they would've behaved differently?
1. Inside is safer than outside, Ocon had a lot of overspeed.
2. He didn't cut the apex, that's the racing line.
3. Yes, Hamilton was only 3 seconds behind, no need for a backmarkers to get involved. Maybe there was frustration there for VES, but duly so.
4. No, they would've behaved the same no doubt.

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Starscreamer
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Re: 2018 Brazilian Grand Prix - Interlagos, 9-11 November

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turbof1 wrote:
Mon Nov 12, 2018 12:02 pm
Sierra117 wrote:
Mon Nov 12, 2018 11:53 am
turbof1 wrote:
Mon Nov 12, 2018 11:49 am

Curious that Max barely calmed down between the accident and the end of the race. There was like half a race distance between it I believe? Also yes the team in no way contributed to keep things from exploding. Verstappen telling how he felt on the after race inlap should have been a red flag.
Amusingly, he says he hopes not to find Ocon in the paddock, then proceeds to look for him himself ... kid needs someone in his corner who can keep his head cool.
It was Hamilton after the race trying to give Verstappen some perspective. This really should have come from the team. There's nothing wrong with being angry, and from Verstappen's perspective I agree Ocon should not have been there. But Verstappen has to avoid this behaviour. Roberto Fenati had a lot less credit with his ex-current and -future teams and paid the price for not controlling his anger.

That being said, Ocon did put up an arrogant grin when Verstappen approached him. Not exactly helpful either.
Fenati move was in the race (very dangerous !!!)
But.... Manzi's moves were complete idiot.
I can't blame Fenati if he punch Manzi in the face after the race (without the danger)

Fenati is a good driver and Forward racing still thinking to honor his contract for 2019
#33 2 THE MAX V3RSTAPP3N

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turbof1
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Re: 2018 Brazilian Grand Prix - Interlagos, 9-11 November

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Starscreamer wrote:
Mon Nov 12, 2018 12:21 pm
turbof1 wrote:
Mon Nov 12, 2018 12:02 pm
Sierra117 wrote:
Mon Nov 12, 2018 11:53 am


Amusingly, he says he hopes not to find Ocon in the paddock, then proceeds to look for him himself ... kid needs someone in his corner who can keep his head cool.
It was Hamilton after the race trying to give Verstappen some perspective. This really should have come from the team. There's nothing wrong with being angry, and from Verstappen's perspective I agree Ocon should not have been there. But Verstappen has to avoid this behaviour. Roberto Fenati had a lot less credit with his ex-current and -future teams and paid the price for not controlling his anger.

That being said, Ocon did put up an arrogant grin when Verstappen approached him. Not exactly helpful either.
Fenati move was in the race (very dangerous !!!)
But.... Manzi's moves were complete idiot.
I can't blame Fenati if he punch Manzi in the face after the race (without the danger)

Fenati is a good driver and Forward racing still thinking to honor his contract for 2019
Well that's the point: you can be justified angry because of what others did to you, but you should not let it escalate to dangerous or undignifying proportions. Fenati caused reputation damage to his team and frankly even though Horner and Marko will not admit it, so did Verstappen now to Red Bull. What do you want youngsters and their parents associate with your energy drinks, regardless of perspective: someone who wins, is focussed and is in control, or somebody who looses himself in his anger?
#AeroFrodo

Fulcrum
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Re: 2018 Brazilian Grand Prix - Interlagos, 9-11 November

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Manoah2u wrote:
Mon Nov 12, 2018 11:50 am
Max getting FIA punishment is BS. He should have had a official warning, no more no less.

Ocon was a total douchebag, whom is frustrated to the bone and destroyed Max' win. It doesn't matter whether or not Max should have left room, you DONT CAUSE A COLLISION and ocon was behind and should have bailed out right there. it was a useless move he was 2 laps behind and it would have not made any difference to the outcome.
it's repeating and repeating with Ocon.

Ocon should indeed be happy just having had a push. It was adrenaline and nothing more and i'm pretty sure his response to max provoked the push.

Piquet hit and kicked a driver. not first time some heated stuff happens.

Hell, knowing Max' father, Max behaved pretty well. Jos would have literally punched Ocon in the face. Hell, Jos even drove into his ex wife with his car.
So concidering Max' background, he behaved exceedingly restricted.

What would you guys think Senna had done?
Suggesting Verstappen is actually behaving "pretty well" considering his father's behaviour is nonsensical.

No one gets a prize for moderately overcoming their worst character traits. Everyone is measured objectively against societal standards; transgression invokes punishment.

Wynters
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Re: 2018 Brazilian Grand Prix - Interlagos, 9-11 November

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It's not often I praise the FIA but kudos to them for finally finding a penalty that matters but that doesn't harm the racing spectacle. Fining drivers £5 is irrelevant. Community service on the other hand not only actually impacts the driver by targeting their spare time but it might even make them realise there is a world outside their multi-million pound bubble.

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WaikeCU
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Re: 2018 Brazilian Grand Prix - Interlagos, 9-11 November

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Manoah2u wrote:
Mon Nov 12, 2018 11:50 am
Max getting FIA punishment is BS. He should have had a official warning, no more no less.

Ocon was a total douchebag, whom is frustrated to the bone and destroyed Max' win. It doesn't matter whether or not Max should have left room, you DONT CAUSE A COLLISION and ocon was behind and should have bailed out right there. it was a useless move he was 2 laps behind and it would have not made any difference to the outcome.
it's repeating and repeating with Ocon.

Ocon should indeed be happy just having had a push. It was adrenaline and nothing more and i'm pretty sure his response to max provoked the push.

Piquet hit and kicked a driver. not first time some heated stuff happens.

Hell, knowing Max' father, Max behaved pretty well. Jos would have literally punched Ocon in the face. Hell, Jos even drove into his ex wife with his car.
So concidering Max' background, he behaved exceedingly restricted.


What would you guys think Senna had done?
Interlagos, 2001. :roll:

What did Montoya do? Google it up.

netoperek
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Re: 2018 Brazilian Grand Prix - Interlagos, 9-11 November

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Manoah2u wrote:
Mon Nov 12, 2018 11:50 am
Max getting FIA punishment is BS. He should have had a official warning, no more no less.

Ocon was a total douchebag, whom is frustrated to the bone and destroyed Max' win. It doesn't matter whether or not Max should have left room, you DONT CAUSE A COLLISION and ocon was behind and should have bailed out right there. it was a useless move he was 2 laps behind and it would have not made any difference to the outcome.
it's repeating and repeating with Ocon.

Ocon should indeed be happy just having had a push. It was adrenaline and nothing more and i'm pretty sure his response to max provoked the push.

Piquet hit and kicked a driver. not first time some heated stuff happens.

Hell, knowing Max' father, Max behaved pretty well. Jos would have literally punched Ocon in the face. Hell, Jos even drove into his ex wife with his car.
So concidering Max' background, he behaved exceedingly restricted.

What would you guys think Senna had done?
I agree it was a useless move. If You look at https://streamable.com/0bynn once more, around 3 minutes mark, You'll see that Ocon was already on the inside, roughly alongside Max and it was Max who made a MOVE. If he had not cut inside into Ocon, he would have probably deservedly won. That's as useless move as it gets. At 3:05 You can see Ocon steering hard right to try and avoid contact, almost getting out of the track. Once Max turned his car (3:04) I doubt there's anything Esteban could do to avoid that crash. It probably has been an overly optimistic try on Ocon's side, but I can't really blame him for seeing a chance here.

As for Piquet - Salazar situation, shameful as it was, It really has been an adrenaline driven outburst as it happened seconds after the crash. Max's assault happened over half an hour later. It was a deliberate action. There have been no remorse and no regrets on his side. That is much more worrying sign than arguably poor decision making on a track.This crash has been an incident, a bizzare one, admittedly, but still just an incident. Regardless on who's to blame (and that's not so obvious for me) it's how You respond when the dust settles that matter most. Nursing of overblown ego and finding excuses for cold blooded assault, strenghtening conviction of superiority and impunity is just about the worst that You can do for Max.
I feel sorry for Max having such an idiot of a father, but that's not an excuse for following his footsteps. After all, F1 is a sport and as such demands some decency from competitiors. Where I stand, even if he were the most talented driver in F1 history if he'll continue on a path of his father and become an allout lunatic, ready to deliberatedly harm other people without any sense of responsibility whatsoever, then the proper place for such people is in isolation, not in the spotlight of an F1 grid. I really hope he'll learn his lessons eventually and cool his head down. He has a potential to become great and would rather see him proudly standing in F1's Hall of Fame some day than facing charges on regular basis.

Diesel
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Re: 2018 Brazilian Grand Prix - Interlagos, 9-11 November

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turbof1 wrote:
Mon Nov 12, 2018 12:20 pm
In all honesty, there's too much fuss being made about the gravity of the error. Hamilton in 2011 was making more mistakes and that was his 5th season. The most important thing is that Verstappen reflects on it, and maybe should also push for a clarification. Unlapping happens rarely, and it's not clear beyond "a driver is allowed to unlap him- or herself" what is allowed and not allowed. Clearly the normal rules don't apply, but what does?
A few options to stop this happening going forwards:
  • No more blue flags, lead drivers race lapped drivers, all normal racing rules apply.
  • No more lapped drivers, as soon as a car is lapped the race is over for them, return to the pits.
  • Blue flags for lead drivers, if a lapped car is quicker the lead cars are given blue flags (or perhaps a variant, blue with a yellow stripe?)
Thoughts?

EDIT: made a new thread/poll for this: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=27726
Last edited by Diesel on Mon Nov 12, 2018 1:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"Unbelievable how silly this Formula 1 is these days, with this stupid overtakes."
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