2018 Brazilian Grand Prix - Interlagos, 9-11 November

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Mach
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Re: 2018 Brazilian Grand Prix - Interlagos, 9-11 November

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NL_Fer wrote:
Mon Nov 12, 2018 6:18 pm
First of all i am a fan of Max (as i was of his dad, Jos). So it is clear which camp i am in, but what i see:

1. Hamilton was right, he has learned by his own mistakes in the past. The race leader has more to loose if he makes contact, so it would be wise to avoid it, if possible. Verstappen has right on the racing line, but he took the corner pretty tight, while Ocon was almost off track. Ocon was at fault, but defending with a high risk of contact, comes with a chance of landing besides he track. I think it is honest and fair advice of Hamilton.

2. I understand Verstappen wanted to defend. Even if Ocon was allowed to pass, the Force India was not going to keep it’s faster pace for long. Verstappen would be closing in within 1-2 laps and increase his tire wear. He was managing them against Hamilton on primes. But in hindsight, some tire wear would be less of a problem vs spinning offtrack.

3. journalists should investigate if any talk has been about this situation before the incident, between Mercedes and Force India or Ocon. Remember Monaco, where Ocon already has shown his loyalty for Mercedes. Maybe again he was proving his loyalty, effort for a (Williams) racing seat in ‘19. He probably wasn’t planning to take Max out or crash him, but overtaking, staying in front for a few laps would slow Verstappen down, irritate him enough. Mercedes got a big bonus for becoming WCC.
Max on older soft tyres with the race win in sight, had nothing to gain defending against back-marker Ocon's younger supersofts regardless of who was at fault at turn 2.....just like Hamilton, with WCC in sight, had nothing to gain against Max's lap 41 pass. So he let Max through with little fight and kept the true prize in sight.

I believe Max needs to understand Risk-Reward trade offs defending with older tyres against back-marker Ocon's younger tyres with what....25 - 27 laps to go?

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Sierra117
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Re: 2018 Brazilian Grand Prix - Interlagos, 9-11 November

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zibby43 wrote:
Mon Nov 12, 2018 7:29 pm
Sierra117 wrote:
Mon Nov 12, 2018 7:36 am
zibby43 wrote:
Mon Nov 12, 2018 6:56 am


What specification of the PU did Merc run on their cars?

And what was your source for that info. (not questioning you, just found it interesting/useful information)?

Thanks!
From what I remember, Bottas was running an older Spec (2?) since the oil leak scare. But it was also significantly turned down. Hamilton I'm not sure if he was running an older engine or not, but definitely turned all the way down as well for most of the race, if not the full thing. Bottas mentioned his engine being an older spec in his paddock interview (with Rachel?).
Good stuff! Thanks, Sierra117.
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NL_Fer
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Re: 2018 Brazilian Grand Prix - Interlagos, 9-11 November

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The Redbull was about 1s faster on average. Ocon would not keep up for more than a handfull of laps. The wake of the Force India would compromise Verstappens aero/race. He would be smarter to let Ocon some room, than go sidebyside to the 2nd straight and push him outward in the double left.

Restomaniac
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Re: 2018 Brazilian Grand Prix - Interlagos, 9-11 November

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ispano6 wrote:
Mon Nov 12, 2018 5:03 pm
Pace has nothing to do with this. It's about sportsmanship. Ocon had no reason to clash with Max, other than the fact that Ocon mentioned himself that there IS a history of the two clashing.

Max pushing Ocon might be considered poor sportsmanship, but at least it was off the track out of the car. Ocon's deliberate poor sportsmanship cost a potential winner the race. I don't care who it was who would have won but I don't take it likely. Now the question is if it was Lewis or someone else would Ocon have ceded? Probably.
Strange you should mention ‘sportsmanship’. How sporting is it to put your car directly in the way of your team mate because he dares to want to be past you and making it so late as to give him no chance of avoiding a collision? Watch Baku 2018 for details. Before it’s mentioned, the relevance is obvious.

I can see the clear talent in Verstappen but by god he needs to learn that others are going to and can pass him now and then.

zeph
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Re: 2018 Brazilian Grand Prix - Interlagos, 9-11 November

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Steven wrote:
Mon Nov 12, 2018 7:32 pm
zeph wrote:
Mon Nov 12, 2018 7:17 pm
Honestly, can anybody watch Ocon's onboard and tell me what he does wrong? I've been watching it over and over again and it all looks clean and above the board to me. Yesterday I thought they were both to blame, but I just can't see what Ocon did wrong here:
https://streamable.com/0bynn
Actually it shows how lucky Verstappen was to be able to rejoin so quickly. He might as well have dropped to 4th.
Yes, I was thinking the same thing. Six more cars passed Ocon before he was able to rejoin the track, imagine if that had been the same for Verstappen.
Steven wrote:
Mon Nov 12, 2018 7:32 pm
But I agree, Ocon had nowhere to go. He had committed to the corner, and from that point of view, one wouldn't expect Verstappen to just turn in like he did. But he still did.
Exactly. In that light, the penalty seems unfair and heavy-handed.
Steven wrote:
Mon Nov 12, 2018 7:32 pm
I also find it strange how F1 seems to protect race and championship contenders when it's about warnings. It took a pretty long time to come up with a penalty, so if there was any discussion, maybe they could have just let it pass as a racing incident as well.
Verstappen gets a pass on almost everything. He is clearly F1's new golden boy, understandable, as he does bring a lot of people to the track and God knows how many more are watching TV because of him.
Right now, F1 needs all the fans it can get, so with his legions of supporters, Verstappen has a lot of clout.

elMaestro
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Re: 2018 Brazilian Grand Prix - Interlagos, 9-11 November

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It is Ocon's fault yes i agree, but dont you think Verstappen could of left more room since he knew Ocon was beside him?

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DiogoBrand
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Re: 2018 Brazilian Grand Prix - Interlagos, 9-11 November

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Verstappen knew there was a car beside him, yet he goes so close to the apex that he nearly touches the white line.
What did he think was gonna happen?

zeph
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Re: 2018 Brazilian Grand Prix - Interlagos, 9-11 November

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Exactly...

dans79
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Re: 2018 Brazilian Grand Prix - Interlagos, 9-11 November

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As many issues as Max has had over the years, I think this must be what runs through his mind when he sees a car closing on him!

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Just_a_fan
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Re: 2018 Brazilian Grand Prix - Interlagos, 9-11 November

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sosic2121 wrote:
Mon Nov 12, 2018 7:22 pm
Just_a_fan wrote:
Mon Nov 12, 2018 5:30 pm
TwanV wrote:
Mon Nov 12, 2018 1:34 pm

Couldn't resist but he isn't there yet: He thanked his Brazilian supporters in Spanish today. =D>
That hardly qualifies as a bar on being a complete driver.
Why would speak spanish to Brazilian supporters? :mrgreen:
He's a racing driver, not a linguist. Are people so desperate to find something against him that they pick this up? If that's all they've got then he's doing pretty well at being a complete racing driver.
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PlatinumZealot
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Re: 2018 Brazilian Grand Prix - Interlagos, 9-11 November

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Good job Ocon! Well done! Show Max you won't back down!

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adrianjordan
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Re: 2018 Brazilian Grand Prix - Interlagos, 9-11 November

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Diesel wrote:
Mon Nov 12, 2018 4:50 pm
WaikeCU wrote:
Mon Nov 12, 2018 3:12 pm
Diesel wrote:
Mon Nov 12, 2018 3:06 pm
Closing thoughts, this isn't the first time Max has threatened to get physical this year, he was talking about punching reportings earlier in the season and not a joking kind of way.

Adrian Sutil was the last driver I can remember to get involved in an altercation off the track, and it effectively ruined his career. It would be a shame if a similar thing happened to Max.
Won't happen because Max is a fan favourite on the grid, while Sutil wasn't.
The local police won't care who he is, if he breaks the law he'll be treated like anybody else.
Lol. The local Police are probably easy to pay off and it would all go away....
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GrandAxe
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Re: 2018 Brazilian Grand Prix - Interlagos, 9-11 November

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Max wants to be bad-arse, but you need a combination of brawn and IQ to be bad-arse.
Sadly, Max only has brawn.

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NathanOlder
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Re: 2018 Brazilian Grand Prix - Interlagos, 9-11 November

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DutchDopey wrote:
Mon Nov 12, 2018 3:35 pm
Wynters wrote:
Mon Nov 12, 2018 3:14 pm
DutchDopey wrote:
Mon Nov 12, 2018 2:47 pm

This is just not true. He came in directly behind Max so got the DRS advantage immediately.
What was the gap to Max when he exited the pits (which was after the second DRS zone so Max had most of a lap to pull away at '2-3 seconds a lap')? It's difficult to tell using the video but I believe it was more than a second at the end of S2 of that first lap. However, it's probably irrelevant as...How much faster do you need to be to maintain position within a second despite the turbulent air? Does DRS make you a second faster a lap? The Red Bull was clearly faster than the Ferrari yet how long was Ricciardo unable to get alongside Raikkonen? Bear in mind that Ocon didn't start pushing until he'd radioed the pitlane and received clearance to unlap himself.

Lap pace relative to overall race pace is irrelevant. At the point he exited the pits Ocon was using fresh super softs (which I don't think he'd had access to before) and he was driving a car that was at it's lightest so far. After the crash his car was damaged. Of course, he was going faster in the two laps leading up to the incident.
Hamilton was 2 seconds behind Max. Ocon came in between them a little closer to Max than Ham, you do the math. So you are just making things up...

I don't want to believe in the conspiracy, but I just learned that Ocon's pitstop took just long enough (lot slower than normal) to come up exactly after Max :D
After Max ? He came out the pits in front of Max.
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Edax
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Re: 2018 Brazilian Grand Prix - Interlagos, 9-11 November

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DiogoBrand wrote:
Mon Nov 12, 2018 9:19 pm
https://i.imgur.com/EJZr2Iu.jpg
Verstappen knew there was a car beside him, yet he goes so close to the apex that he nearly touches the white line.
What did he think was gonna happen?
I don’t think Verstappen ever expected him to be there. If you are wheel to wheel you can tough it out together in that corner, but that usually requires some wheel banging and copious amount of curb. If you are only partially aside you lift and slot in behind for the next straight, you don’t hang around.

The rule says you have to give each other space. The rules do not say you are allowed to stick your nose into any closing gap and expect the other to see you and yield.

Ocon’s second move would have been penalised if it was for a position. Just look at Stroll vs Alonso. Even though there was a car next to Alonso he could have easily given more space, if he knew Stroll was there. But the point is Stroll should not have put himself in this position, nor should Alonso be required to anticipate on someone being there.

That is why Stroll got a drive-through for “causing a collision” and so did Ocon. The fact that it was an unlapping maneuvre, only makes it more incomprehensible to understand what was going through Ocon’s brain.

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