2019 Mercedes AMG Petronas Formula One Team

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mkay
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Re: 2019 Mercedes AMG Petronas Formula One Team

Post by mkay » Mon Mar 11, 2019 4:18 pm

GPR -A wrote:
Mon Mar 11, 2019 4:06 pm
mkay wrote:
Mon Mar 11, 2019 3:31 pm
Merc engineers may say the W10 doesn't have "too little" downforce - which is fair, perhaps - but Ferrari has been the best car over testing on medium and high speed corners and also the most stable under heavy breaking, all signs pointing to it having loads of downforce.
If your point is to prove that, Ferrari is a better car than Mercedes, then you are free to believe so. But if the idea is to understand the issues with Mercedes, then you need to have an independent approach towards the issues. With that, if a car is having tyre warming issues and the tyres are not in right working window, the car is going to naturally have problems in the cornering performance.
Let me rephrase: perhaps the W10's tyre issues in testing were preventing it from reaching optimal cornering speeds, but from prior years, such issues didn't affect the W08 and W09 around Barcelona, two chassis that were also impacted by relatively similar tyre issues.

Anyway, we will see in Melbourne. Thanks for the downvote.

GPR -A
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Re: 2019 Mercedes AMG Petronas Formula One Team

Post by GPR -A » Mon Mar 11, 2019 4:36 pm

mkay wrote:
Mon Mar 11, 2019 4:18 pm
Let me rephrase: perhaps the W10's tyre issues in testing were preventing it from reaching optimal cornering speeds, but from prior years, such issues didn't affect the W08 and W09 around Barcelona, two chassis that were also impacted by relatively similar tyre issues.
You are generalizing the issues between different cars. W08 was unable to switch all the tyres at once, where when front comes to life, the rears were not and rears come to life then fronts are not. With Pirelli bringing different compounds in 2018, the behavior once again changed for W09, where the surface of the tyres started remaining colder, whereas the heat was building inside of the compound. Which they fixed with different approach to tyre rims.

Due to the cars' (W08 and W09) natural characteristic putting a lot of energy into the tyres, they didn't have issues in winter tests as they could switch on the tyres well and the colder temperatures help the tyres. So, it didn't seem like they struggled in winter tests. But as the season progressed, they started facing the issues.

With W10, so far, they have faced the problem of being unable to heat the tyres to bring them to right working window. It's like they moved to the opposite end of the spectrum in terms of managing the tyres. May be the colder temperatures of the winter didn't help in this regard.

A day when you lose a million dollar from your bank account for every down vote here, you should then be bothered.

PhillipM
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Re: 2019 Mercedes AMG Petronas Formula One Team

Post by PhillipM » Mon Mar 11, 2019 5:23 pm

And the cooler tyre warmer settings this year won't help if you're going out in winter onto a cold track...

zibby43
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Re: 2019 Mercedes AMG Petronas Formula One Team

Post by zibby43 » Mon Mar 11, 2019 6:20 pm

siskue2005 wrote:
Mon Mar 11, 2019 7:22 am
zibby43 wrote:
Mon Mar 11, 2019 7:09 am
siskue2005 wrote:
Mon Mar 11, 2019 5:22 am


Vettel had 3 poles out of the first 4 races in 2018
and won 2 of them, and could have easily won all 4 (team screw up in China and Him screwing up in Baku)
Except for Spain/France (with special tyres) they were the fastest car until Singapore GP

i think they are on a similar position in 2019 also....the Ferrari was also the better in 2018 initially, after the summer break Ferrari dirver and team usually fall apart.

If we had similar situations to 2018 then we are on for a great season
The difference to 2018 season and now is that back then Mercedes were very close behind Ferrari in most races....but i have doubts this season.
Mercedes supposedly had a sizeable margin over Ferrari to begin the season last year. While that margin did secure Hamilton a dominant pole in Melbourne, Mercedes lost the race (strategy software error) after Hamilton put a significant gap on Vettel.

Mercedes did not win until Azerbaijan.

Ferrari did bring a massive floor update to Bahrain, last year, however.
Mercedes didn't win Baku, it was Ferrari/Vettel who lost it, otherwise, it was an easy win for them.

moreover, are you suggesting the Bahrain floor update from Ferrari was worth nearly one second (comparison of pole laps from Melbourne and Bahrain)? Dont think it works like that.

You need to understand the Melbourne track is a special one, it usually is not representative of the pecking order.
We’re having a failure to communicate.

1) All I was doing was pointing out when Merc notched their first win of the season.

2) Melbourne is a unique track, and according to your logic, it’s not necessarily that the Bahrain floor update was worth a full second. It’s more likely that the 7 tenths Hamilton was on pole by in Melbourne was a combination of Hamilton being good there, Ferrari not understanding their car yet, and an average lap from Vettel.

The actual gap between the cars was probably 4 tenths. Which a floor/underfloor can most definitely make up.

I don’t know why you think I’m arguing against you lol.

zibby43
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Re: 2019 Mercedes AMG Petronas Formula One Team

Post by zibby43 » Mon Mar 11, 2019 6:24 pm

waynes wrote:
Mon Mar 11, 2019 10:06 am
stumbled across this on a forum i'm on. Anyone heard similar? certainly would explain why Wolff and Allison dont sound too keen

https://i.imgur.com/8QQPfkt.png

obviously I havent seen anything mentioned on here about cooling issues
The reason this doesn’t make a lot of sense to me is that Merc closed up a bunch of their cooling and made their packaging tighter in week 2.

Which seems like the opposite approach they’d be wanting to take if they had cooling problems.

Anybody press this guy for a follow-up?

GrandAxe
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Re: 2019 Mercedes AMG Petronas Formula One Team

Post by GrandAxe » Mon Mar 11, 2019 6:57 pm

GPR -A wrote:
Mon Mar 11, 2019 1:14 pm
GrandAxe wrote:
Mon Mar 11, 2019 11:48 am
waynes wrote:
Mon Mar 11, 2019 10:06 am
stumbled across this on a forum i'm on. Anyone heard similar? certainly would explain why Wolff and Allison dont sound too keen

https://i.imgur.com/8QQPfkt.png

obviously I havent seen anything mentioned on here about cooling issues
Mercs only real problems during testing came from tyres and aero. Cooling seems to be a pretty long shot.
I am curious, why do you say they have aero issues?
Not saying they still have aero problems. However, they did in testing week one for which they brought a new aero package in week two.
"Having revealed that Mercedes' main issue from the first week was in finding a consistent balance for a whole lap, Bottas said that progress had been made on this front with the new aero update

"From last week to this week, definitely we have been able to improve the overall balance of the car, and the differences in the balance we had through the speed range," he said.

"We've been able to improve overall grip, downforce, and stability. But all those areas, we can still do better.
https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/merc ... i/4345276/

ScottB
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Re: 2019 Mercedes AMG Petronas Formula One Team

Post by ScottB » Mon Mar 11, 2019 6:59 pm

waynes wrote:
Mon Mar 11, 2019 10:06 am
stumbled across this on a forum i'm on. Anyone heard similar? certainly would explain why Wolff and Allison dont sound too keen

https://i.imgur.com/8QQPfkt.png

obviously I havent seen anything mentioned on here about cooling issues
Would be odd since the second week upgrades further shrunk the packaging, which would have made any cooling issues even worse, so this would have to be a problem they missed while designing launch and 'B' spec packages. Not impossible, I suppose, but seems unlikely for a team like Mercedes...

GrandAxe
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Re: 2019 Mercedes AMG Petronas Formula One Team

Post by GrandAxe » Mon Mar 11, 2019 7:05 pm

PhillipM wrote:
Mon Mar 11, 2019 2:48 pm
Graining can just be about too much load through a cold tyre rather than slippage, it could well be the case that the Merc was generating more df than anyone else causing the graining.
I thought too much downforce (rather than running heavy) might be the case too when we discussed cold graining on the testing thread.
If Merc was generating too much downforce for Barcelona, then could see both the week one front wing and front suspension back again on street circuits.

LM10
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Re: 2019 Mercedes AMG Petronas Formula One Team

Post by LM10 » Wed Mar 13, 2019 3:52 pm

Dutch F1 analyst and former Renault test driver Ho-Pin Tung says that he knows from "reliable sources" that Mercedes will bring updates worth at least a full second.

https://www.grandprixradio.nl/2019/03/1 ... dwinst-op/

Some rocket engine? :)

Btw., I neither know this site which this guy seems to work at, nor do I know him or why he should have any reliable relation to Mercedes. Anyone?

Just_a_fan
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Re: 2019 Mercedes AMG Petronas Formula One Team

Post by Just_a_fan » Wed Mar 13, 2019 4:01 pm

If they bring a full second - presumably what would have been the usual testing - Melbourne upgrade package (the "upgrade" during testing not being an upgrade but actually the real Car 1.0*) - then that will be impressive. Of course, others are likely to bring upgrades too so whether it actually gives them a second's advantage over others is a moot point.


*the first test car was effectively the beta car (Car 0.1), with the second car being the first release version i.e. Car 1.0. Melbourne then being Car 1.1.
Turbo says "Dumpster sounds so much more classy. It's the diamond of the cesspools." oh, and "The Dutch fans are drunk. Maybe"

atanatizante
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Re: 2019 Mercedes AMG Petronas Formula One Team

Post by atanatizante » Wed Mar 13, 2019 4:46 pm

According to what Andy Cowell said in one interview regarding 2019 PU, they rethink their priorities towards more cooling efficiency and from the second test, we could witness that the purpose was to shrink the sidepods area hence having a better aero ...

It`s that so? If we could see from the point of ICE`s performance, ICE`s reliability and ICE`s efficiency what could we say they`ve been focused on?

From my point of view, knowing that reliability must be a constant and performance is governed by the law of diminishing returns (except fuel formulas), ICE`s (fuel) efficiency is the real factor for having a bigger scope of development.

Having such tough competition from Ferrari and from Red Bull lately, with delta times between them becoming even smaller in 2019, they acknowledge that the biggest differentiator factor would be the fuel consumption aka fuel-efficient factor for this area give them one of the biggest - if not the biggest - gains both in development and performance/race pace side! These gains could be done either form fuel formula or from improved combustion and the latter factor could be done if they redesign most if not the whole 2019 ICE. This could be the reason behind Andy Cowell`s above statement.

We know that 10kg could worth almost 4-5 tenths a lap - track dependent - as James Allison said in another interview and knowing that they usually underfuel the car in the races, from my point of view this could give them the edge in 2019 ...
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GPR -A
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Re: 2019 Mercedes AMG Petronas Formula One Team

Post by GPR -A » Wed Mar 13, 2019 5:04 pm

atanatizante wrote:
Wed Mar 13, 2019 4:46 pm
performance is governed by the law of diminishing returns
I never understood this statement, ever. How does one know what the limit is?

What is different in this image? How did the same size evolved to be so large in capacity? Why did someone not say, we have reached the "diminishing returns" in this SD card concept, when they first reached 4GB?

Image

Similarly, how does one determine the limits of a PU architecture? Mercedes is on their 3rd generation PU architecture since 2014. Clever and Intelligent people, always find new avenues to bring in efficiency and scalable solutions, within the given constraints. Technical advancements in various fields offers better solutions with greater performances and who is to say that, these same power units can't reach 2000 BHP peak power, within the given fuel flow regulations.

It's mostly about people's attitude towards the perceived limitations. Does one accept it and gives up OR push the thought process and bring out newer ideas to move forward.

In 2015, Cyril Abiteboul was confident that they can catch Mercedes as the law of diminishing returns will slow Mercedes down. Is it?

Renault sure it will catch Mercedes ... it's just not sure when
8 Apr, 2015, Laurence Edmondson, F1 Editor wrote: Renault says there is no reason why it cannot catch up with Mercedes under the current regulations and believes the law of diminishing returns will curb its rivals' progress in the coming years.

dans79
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Re: 2019 Mercedes AMG Petronas Formula One Team

Post by dans79 » Wed Mar 13, 2019 5:10 pm

atanatizante wrote:
Wed Mar 13, 2019 4:46 pm
According to what Andy Cowell said in one interview regarding 2019 PU, they rethink their priorities towards more cooling efficiency and from the second test, we could witness that the purpose was to shrink the sidepods area hence having a better aero ...
They released this when they did their filming day prior to testing.

The last quote is the most important, because before testing enen started they stated their goal was to run light.

My bet is they have pushed the efficiency bar even higher, and thus can do with less cooling, and less fuel. The question is have the sacrificed all out performance, because qualifying well is still more important than it should be, imo.


https://www.mercedesamgf1.com/en/merced ... irst-time/
“We’ve made changes to the cooling architecture of the Power Unit, which hopefully provide aerodynamic benefit on the car and also provide efficiency benefit on the Power Unit – so, hopefully a win on both the chassis and on the Power Unit,” said Andy Cowell, Managing Director of Mercedes-AMG High Performance Powertrains.
“Right at the heart of the Power Unit is the conversion of fuel into heat release in the combustion chamber and useful work out of the crankshaft. We have made steps on the combustion efficiency and on the ERS system. The marriage between the turbocharger assembly with the MGU-H, the inverter, the cells and the MGU-K: that whole system is now capable of operating more efficiently and helping with energy deployment through a race.”
The maximum race fuel allowance has increased by 5 kilograms to a total of 110 kilograms. However, the higher fuel allowance does not impact the thermal efficiency of Formula One Power Units, which are among the most efficient engines ever-built.

“If you have got an efficient engine with efficient aerodynamics and you are prepared to do a little bit of lift and coasting, then you have the opportunity to start the race at less than 110kg,” explained Andy. “For every 5kg of weight you save, it’s about two tenths of a second a lap quicker, so there is a natural reward to starting the race a little bit lighter. There is still a competitive edge from making an efficient car – both Power Unit and aerodynamics – and racing smartly to make sure that you have good pace at the start of the race as well as through the race.”

zokipirlo
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Re: 2019 Mercedes AMG Petronas Formula One Team

Post by zokipirlo » Wed Mar 13, 2019 6:12 pm

siskue2005 wrote:
Mon Mar 11, 2019 5:22 am
zibby43 wrote:
Mon Mar 11, 2019 4:31 am

And Mercedes started last year with the advantage Ferrari has *this* year.
Vettel had 3 poles out of the first 4 races in 2018
and won 2 of them, and could have easily won all 4 (team screw up in China and Him screwing up in Baku)
Except for Spain/France (with special tyres) they were the fastest car until Singapore GP

i think they are on a similar position in 2019 also....the Ferrari was also the better in 2018 initially, after the summer break Ferrari dirver and team usually fall apart.

If we had similar situations to 2018 then we are on for a great season
The difference to 2018 season and now is that back then Mercedes were very close behind Ferrari in most races....but i have doubts this season.
Mercedes had better aero package whole year, it was just tyre related problem that they couldn't convert that advantage. Once they solved that problem in Singapore they were clearly no. 1 team. And also on tracks with different tyres they were very close or ahead of Ferrari.
But this year Ferrari in aero package looks better than Mercedes. Will see how big reliability problems will Ferrari have (on testing they had a lot) and if Mercedes could benefit from that.

atanatizante
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Re: 2019 Mercedes AMG Petronas Formula One Team

Post by atanatizante » Wed Mar 13, 2019 6:26 pm

GPR -A wrote:
Wed Mar 13, 2019 5:04 pm
atanatizante wrote:
Wed Mar 13, 2019 4:46 pm
performance is governed by the law of diminishing returns
I never understood this statement, ever. How does one know what the limit is?

What is different in this image? How did the same size evolved to be so large in capacity? Why did someone not say, we have reached the "diminishing returns" in this SD card concept, when they first reached 4GB?

https://ae01.alicdn.com/kf/HTB1UpnTSXXX ... 40x640.jpg

Similarly, how does one determine the limits of a PU architecture? Mercedes is on their 3rd generation PU architecture since 2014. Clever and Intelligent people, always find new avenues to bring in efficiency and scalable solutions, within the given constraints. Technical advancements in various fields offers better solutions with greater performances and who is to say that, these same power units can't reach 2000 BHP peak power, within the given fuel flow regulations.

It's mostly about people's attitude towards the perceived limitations. Does one accept it and gives up OR push the thought process and bring out newer ideas to move forward.

In 2015, Cyril Abiteboul was confident that they can catch Mercedes as the law of diminishing returns will slow Mercedes down. Is it?

Renault sure it will catch Mercedes ... it's just not sure when
8 Apr, 2015, Laurence Edmondson, F1 Editor wrote: Renault says there is no reason why it cannot catch up with Mercedes under the current regulations and believes the law of diminishing returns will curb its rivals' progress in the coming years.
I don`t think flash cards could be used as an example first for being like comparing apples to oranges but I understand what you mean ...
There are many tech people in F1 - Andy Cowell is one of them - which says there`s a law of diminishing returns for PU but they don`t get into specifics (ERS, ICE or both?)

Anyway, the main question is the following: what could be the main/biggest differentiator factor this year between Merc, Ferrari and Red Bull, a factor which could give the winning team an edge from the other two teams?
"I don`t have all the answers. Try Google!"
Jesus