Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

All that has to do with the power train, gearbox, clutch, fuels and lubricants, etc. Generally the mechanical side of Formula One.
subcritical71
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by subcritical71 » Thu Apr 04, 2019 11:32 am

Stealing a photo from the article that zibby43 referenced, I would disagree with what was officially said by Ferrari. A bad cylinder does not allow the car to accelerate to above 200km/h at the same rate as a normally performing Cylinder. Therefore reinforcing the pit to car communication during the race as far more credible (no H recovery).

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Juzh
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by Juzh » Thu Apr 04, 2019 11:53 am

foofykid wrote:
Wed Apr 03, 2019 8:29 pm
JPBD1990 wrote:
Wed Apr 03, 2019 2:27 pm
foofykid wrote:
Wed Apr 03, 2019 1:23 pm
Has anyone watched and listened to the on broads from the last race. Listen closely this engine is a mess its sounds like there are still a bunch of issues with possibly software/ hardware. With in a few laps the engine will surge in some areas mostly in the straights. I feel like the engine all of a sudden will get burst of energy, it will also sound like its losing energy in some parts of the track. People were noticing that before in Australia so i still think there is something up with this engine.
Tbh, I think that’s just the broadcasting/coverage. This season they’ve mad heaps of mismatched audio, out of sync audio, or just outright missing audio. You say people mentioned this before Australia, but I’m not aware? Do you have a source?

But if it is from FOM/world feed, I think it’s the broadcasts fault not the engine
Someone on reddit F1 posted an big well made article on what i am talking about. I am unsure about the rules here for me to post info from another source (reddit).
For the 10000th time: supposed surges in engine tone are solely down to broadcasting issues from the F1TV. They are happening on all cars on the grid all the time. Probably when the car switches to a different trackside receiver.

If you look at any clip posted from F1 official sources you will not hear a single audio "surge" (though the sound is still often out of sync) because they are using a much stronger signal for the offical broadcasts compared to f1tv.

F1NAC
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by F1NAC » Thu Apr 04, 2019 12:21 pm

subcritical71 wrote:
Thu Apr 04, 2019 11:32 am
Stealing a photo from the article that zibby43 referenced, I would disagree with what was officially said by Ferrari. A bad cylinder does not allow the car to accelerate to above 200km/h at the same rate as a normally performing Cylinder. Therefore reinforcing the pit to car communication during the race as far more credible (no H recovery).

https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-ZSgnkXjpI-E/ ... 2Brace.png
But they were recovering (H, rear lights were blinking) during the race after reporting the problem?

richardn
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by richardn » Thu Apr 04, 2019 12:30 pm

subcritical71 wrote:
Thu Apr 04, 2019 11:32 am
Stealing a photo from the article that zibby43 referenced, I would disagree with what was officially said by Ferrari. A bad cylinder does not allow the car to accelerate to above 200km/h at the same rate as a normally performing Cylinder. Therefore reinforcing the pit to car communication during the race as far more credible (no H recovery).
As you say, a car without H recovery has the same instantaneous power as one with (though it's possible that electric supercharging isn't available meaning there could be some extra turbo lag too.), though that power is available for much less of the time, whereas a car which is down on ICE power is down on total power everywhere.

One thing for sure is that the other teams will be analysing those traces closely whether the problem was a cylinder or the H.

PS I thought the red lights correspond to no electrical power available.

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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by 3jawchuck » Thu Apr 04, 2019 12:48 pm

F1NAC wrote:
Thu Apr 04, 2019 12:21 pm
subcritical71 wrote:
Thu Apr 04, 2019 11:32 am
Stealing a photo from the article that zibby43 referenced, I would disagree with what was officially said by Ferrari. A bad cylinder does not allow the car to accelerate to above 200km/h at the same rate as a normally performing Cylinder. Therefore reinforcing the pit to car communication during the race as far more credible (no H recovery).

https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-ZSgnkXjpI-E/ ... 2Brace.png
But they were recovering (H, rear lights were blinking) during the race after reporting the problem?
Wasn't the MGU-K still working? Wouldn't that lead to the rear light flashing too?

I thought the light flashed when the car could be slowing down due to ERS recovery, lift and coast, or generally lack of power from the electrical system for some reason?
“There are only three sports: bullfighting, motor racing, and mountaineering; all the rest are merely games.” --Ernest Hemingway

Dr. Acula
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by Dr. Acula » Thu Apr 04, 2019 2:21 pm

3jawchuck wrote:
Thu Apr 04, 2019 12:48 pm
F1NAC wrote:
Thu Apr 04, 2019 12:21 pm
subcritical71 wrote:
Thu Apr 04, 2019 11:32 am
Stealing a photo from the article that zibby43 referenced, I would disagree with what was officially said by Ferrari. A bad cylinder does not allow the car to accelerate to above 200km/h at the same rate as a normally performing Cylinder. Therefore reinforcing the pit to car communication during the race as far more credible (no H recovery).

https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-ZSgnkXjpI-E/ ... 2Brace.png
But they were recovering (H, rear lights were blinking) during the race after reporting the problem?
Wasn't the MGU-K still working? Wouldn't that lead to the rear light flashing too?

I thought the light flashed when the car could be slowing down due to ERS recovery, lift and coast, or generally lack of power from the electrical system for some reason?
The light comes on when the K harvests. That can happen under braking or already when the driver starts to lift and coast, depending on the mapping.
The H doesn't trigger the light because normally the H harvests under full throttle, so it doesn't slow down the car, top speed will just a little bit lower compared to the Quali-mapping when they reduce pumping loses of the engine by leaving the waste gate open.

subcritical71
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by subcritical71 » Thu Apr 04, 2019 3:12 pm

Dr. Acula wrote:
Thu Apr 04, 2019 2:21 pm
3jawchuck wrote:
Thu Apr 04, 2019 12:48 pm
F1NAC wrote:
Thu Apr 04, 2019 12:21 pm


But they were recovering (H, rear lights were blinking) during the race after reporting the problem?
Wasn't the MGU-K still working? Wouldn't that lead to the rear light flashing too?

I thought the light flashed when the car could be slowing down due to ERS recovery, lift and coast, or generally lack of power from the electrical system for some reason?
The light comes on when the K harvests. That can happen under braking or already when the driver starts to lift and coast, depending on the mapping.
The H doesn't trigger the light because normally the H harvests under full throttle, so it doesn't slow down the car, top speed will just a little bit lower compared to the Quali-mapping when they reduce pumping loses of the engine by leaving the waste gate open.
I would assume the K was still completely functional. The PU itself was for whatever reason was not able to send all the energy from H to K or K to H (could be a problem with the H/turbine, could be the ES, could be the CE, or something else) and instead was energy limited by the ES to K route (2 MJ).

erikejw
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by erikejw » Thu Apr 04, 2019 3:32 pm

subcritical71 wrote:
Thu Apr 04, 2019 11:32 am
Stealing a photo from the article that zibby43 referenced, I would disagree with what was officially said by Ferrari. A bad cylinder does not allow the car to accelerate to above 200km/h at the same rate as a normally performing Cylinder. Therefore reinforcing the pit to car communication during the race as far more credible (no H recovery).

https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-ZSgnkXjpI-E/ ... 2Brace.png
If they are traction limited up to that speed(200-225) when the divergence starts it can still be a faulty injector.

All systems will work bad when he runs on 5 cylinders. All parameters are optimised for a healthy engine, mgu-h will harvest less too.

subcritical71
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by subcritical71 » Thu Apr 04, 2019 3:37 pm

erikejw wrote:
Thu Apr 04, 2019 3:32 pm
subcritical71 wrote:
Thu Apr 04, 2019 11:32 am
Stealing a photo from the article that zibby43 referenced, I would disagree with what was officially said by Ferrari. A bad cylinder does not allow the car to accelerate to above 200km/h at the same rate as a normally performing Cylinder. Therefore reinforcing the pit to car communication during the race as far more credible (no H recovery).

https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-ZSgnkXjpI-E/ ... 2Brace.png
If they are traction limited up to that speed(200-225) when the divergence starts it can still be a faulty injector.

All systems will work bad when he runs on 5 cylinders. All parameters are optimised for a healthy engine, mgu-h will harvest less too.
That is the part I was trying to show. If it was on 5 cylinders with all systems compromised how were the accelerations to ~200 kmh still on par with a perfectly functioning PU? I thought the traction limit was closer to ~140 kmh.

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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by dans79 » Thu Apr 04, 2019 4:04 pm

subcritical71 wrote:
Thu Apr 04, 2019 3:37 pm
That is the part I was trying to show. If it was on 5 cylinders with all systems compromised how were the accelerations to ~200 kmh still on par with a perfectly functioning PU? I thought the traction limit was closer to ~140 kmh.
When you watch the official on boards that actually show speed and throttle, you can get a decent idea. Depending on the car and track I would say it's anywhere from 110 to 150.

foofykid
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by foofykid » Thu Apr 04, 2019 6:46 pm

3jawchuck wrote:
Wed Apr 03, 2019 8:33 pm
foofykid wrote:
Wed Apr 03, 2019 8:29 pm
Someone on reddit F1 posted an big well made article on what i am talking about. I am unsure about the rules here for me to post info from another source (reddit).
Post the link.
This is what i am talking about:

https://www.reddit.com/r/formula1/comme ... ower_unit/

NL_Fer
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by NL_Fer » Thu Apr 04, 2019 7:12 pm

subcritical71 wrote:
Thu Apr 04, 2019 11:32 am
Stealing a photo from the article that zibby43 referenced, I would disagree with what was officially said by Ferrari. A bad cylinder does not allow the car to accelerate to above 200km/h at the same rate as a normally performing Cylinder. Therefore reinforcing the pit to car communication during the race as far more credible (no H recovery).

https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-ZSgnkXjpI-E/ ... 2Brace.png
All i can see is, that he loses speed compared to normal, once he hit full throttle. That would suggest less ICE power.

Mr.G
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by Mr.G » Thu Apr 04, 2019 7:30 pm

Watching the LEC onboard from redit with on lap adjustments and battery telemetry I've tried to calculate the MGU-K deploement time. And if I'm right it only takes 16,6 sec to fully discharge the ES resp. reach the 4MJ per limit from ES to MGU-K
Art without engineering is dreaming. Engineering without art is calculating. Steven K. Roberts

subcritical71
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by subcritical71 » Thu Apr 04, 2019 7:53 pm

NL_Fer wrote:
Thu Apr 04, 2019 7:12 pm
subcritical71 wrote:
Thu Apr 04, 2019 11:32 am
Stealing a photo from the article that zibby43 referenced, I would disagree with what was officially said by Ferrari. A bad cylinder does not allow the car to accelerate to above 200km/h at the same rate as a normally performing Cylinder. Therefore reinforcing the pit to car communication during the race as far more credible (no H recovery).

https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-ZSgnkXjpI-E/ ... 2Brace.png
All i can see is, that he loses speed compared to normal, once he hit full throttle. That would suggest less ICE power.
I wish I could get the CSV files for these data, but from what I can tell with using some graphics programs to line things up is that full throttle occurs around 150 km/h (lap 51 traces) with one occuring at 175 km/h. The slopes of the speed increase start to diverge around >200 km/h.

Jozsusz
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by Jozsusz » Thu Apr 04, 2019 10:04 pm

subcritical71 wrote:
Thu Apr 04, 2019 11:32 am
Stealing a photo from the article that zibby43 referenced, I would disagree with what was officially said by Ferrari. A bad cylinder does not allow the car to accelerate to above 200km/h at the same rate as a normally performing Cylinder. Therefore reinforcing the pit to car communication during the race as far more credible (no H recovery).

https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-ZSgnkXjpI-E/ ... 2Brace.png
Exaclty.

As I said before: this cylinder excuse is bs.