Mercedes-AMG F1 W10 EQ Power+

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zibby43
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Re: Mercedes-AMG F1 W10 EQ Power+

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LM10 wrote:
Mon Apr 08, 2019 8:14 pm
I’m shocked you’re still thinking this article about phonometric analysis was true. It was so obvious it was an april fool article.
There is not even anything called phonometric analysis, at least not to measure horsepower on cars. I mean, come on, just think about it. How do you imagine that? The article suggested there were 2 institutes on the track doing this analysis. Measuring horsepower by the car’s noises/sounds? :) How would that even work?

You tell that people are speaking about the 40 hp advantage based on 1 article. Well, you’re doing the same based on this joke article, aren’t you?
That wasn't an "April Fools" joke article. Is this a delayed April Fools joke claiming phonometric analysis isn't real?

Phonometric analysis in F1 is real and is used in conjunction with GPS data to evaluate power units.

In the comments section of his most recent report (Bahrain), Mark Hughes (one of the best F1 journalists in the paddock) addresses phonometric analysis and how teams use both phonometric and GPS data to get the full picture of what the competition is doing.

From a user (bill shoe) here on the board:

"The audio ("phonometric") analysis gives info on frequencies of various components. It probably gives insight into whether the H is running and how hard, this being determined by differences between car accel and engine rpm relative to turbo whine (blade-pass frequency). It may be able to determine if the K is under load due to increased noise/whine from the geartrain between K and crankshaft. This noise analysis can't determine power curves which already come from the GPS data that the FIA shares with all teams. The noise analysis can give more detailed perspective on what a competitor's powertrain is doing over the course of a lap where the teams already know the competitor's net delivered power from the GPS. Noise analysis helps reveal a competitor's means to achieving their end."
Last edited by zibby43 on Mon Apr 08, 2019 8:34 pm, edited 2 times in total.

zibby43
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Re: Mercedes-AMG F1 W10 EQ Power+

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PhillipM wrote:
Mon Apr 08, 2019 8:25 pm
LM10 wrote:
Mon Apr 08, 2019 8:14 pm
Measuring horsepower by the car’s noises/sounds? :) How would that even work?
Boy you're going to feel silly when you find out F1 teams have been doing sonic analysis at the trackside for decades.
Correct. With the rise of the importance of GPS data, you just don't hear as much about this type of anlaysis anymore (no pun intended). :D

Anyway, now that we have cleared that up, those are my last thoughts on any PU-related musings (as far as this thread is concerned).

zac510
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Re: Mercedes-AMG F1 W10 EQ Power+

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PhillipM wrote:
Mon Apr 08, 2019 8:25 pm
LM10 wrote:
Mon Apr 08, 2019 8:14 pm
Measuring horsepower by the car’s noises/sounds? :) How would that even work?
Boy you're going to feel silly when you find out F1 teams have been doing sonic analysis at the trackside for decades.
Here is even a thread with someone doing it on this very forum - 13 years ago!

(albeit from onboard footage, not trackside)

edit:
Sorry forgot to paste the actual link! viewtopic.php?f=4&t=2218&p=217084
Last edited by zac510 on Tue Apr 09, 2019 8:49 am, edited 1 time in total.

LM10
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Re: Mercedes-AMG F1 W10 EQ Power+

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zibby43 wrote:
Mon Apr 08, 2019 8:27 pm
LM10 wrote:
Mon Apr 08, 2019 8:14 pm
I’m shocked you’re still thinking this article about phonometric analysis was true. It was so obvious it was an april fool article.
There is not even anything called phonometric analysis, at least not to measure horsepower on cars. I mean, come on, just think about it. How do you imagine that? The article suggested there were 2 institutes on the track doing this analysis. Measuring horsepower by the car’s noises/sounds? :) How would that even work?

You tell that people are speaking about the 40 hp advantage based on 1 article. Well, you’re doing the same based on this joke article, aren’t you?
That wasn't an "April Fools" joke article. Is this a delayed April Fools joke claiming phonometric analysis isn't real?

Phonometric analysis in F1 is real and is used in conjunction with GPS data to evaluate power units.

In the comments section of his most recent report (Bahrain), Mark Hughes (one of the best F1 journalists in the paddock) addresses phonometric analysis and how teams use both phonometric and GPS data to get the full picture of what the competition is doing.

From a user (bill shoe) here on the board:

"The audio ("phonometric") analysis gives info on frequencies of various components. It probably gives insight into whether the H is running and how hard, this being determined by differences between car accel and engine rpm relative to turbo whine (blade-pass frequency). It may be able to determine if the K is under load due to increased noise/whine from the geartrain between K and crankshaft. This noise analysis can't determine power curves which already come from the GPS data that the FIA shares with all teams. The noise analysis can give more detailed perspective on what a competitor's powertrain is doing over the course of a lap where the teams already know the competitor's net delivered power from the GPS. Noise analysis helps reveal a competitor's means to achieving their end."
The article only stated that phonometric data showed exact horsepower numbers. This quote tells that it's the GPS data which makes the hp measurement possible.
Giving such clear numbers like "Honda is 38 hp down" and "Renault is 7 hp down on Honda" through sound analysis, which the article claimed, is obviously not correct. I told that you can't do sound analysis to tell how much horsepower a car has and that's what also the quote tells.

They might have used it in combination with GPS data, but claiming odd numbers like 38 and 7 gave it away, in my opinion.

zibby43
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Re: Mercedes-AMG F1 W10 EQ Power+

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LM10 wrote:
Mon Apr 08, 2019 9:18 pm
zibby43 wrote:
Mon Apr 08, 2019 8:27 pm
LM10 wrote:
Mon Apr 08, 2019 8:14 pm
I’m shocked you’re still thinking this article about phonometric analysis was true. It was so obvious it was an april fool article.
There is not even anything called phonometric analysis, at least not to measure horsepower on cars. I mean, come on, just think about it. How do you imagine that? The article suggested there were 2 institutes on the track doing this analysis. Measuring horsepower by the car’s noises/sounds? :) How would that even work?

You tell that people are speaking about the 40 hp advantage based on 1 article. Well, you’re doing the same based on this joke article, aren’t you?
That wasn't an "April Fools" joke article. Is this a delayed April Fools joke claiming phonometric analysis isn't real?

Phonometric analysis in F1 is real and is used in conjunction with GPS data to evaluate power units.

In the comments section of his most recent report (Bahrain), Mark Hughes (one of the best F1 journalists in the paddock) addresses phonometric analysis and how teams use both phonometric and GPS data to get the full picture of what the competition is doing.

From a user (bill shoe) here on the board:

"The audio ("phonometric") analysis gives info on frequencies of various components. It probably gives insight into whether the H is running and how hard, this being determined by differences between car accel and engine rpm relative to turbo whine (blade-pass frequency). It may be able to determine if the K is under load due to increased noise/whine from the geartrain between K and crankshaft. This noise analysis can't determine power curves which already come from the GPS data that the FIA shares with all teams. The noise analysis can give more detailed perspective on what a competitor's powertrain is doing over the course of a lap where the teams already know the competitor's net delivered power from the GPS. Noise analysis helps reveal a competitor's means to achieving their end."
The article only stated that phonometric data showed exact horsepower numbers. This quote tells that it's the GPS data which makes the hp measurement possible.
Giving such clear numbers like "Honda is 38 hp down" and "Renault is 7 hp down on Honda" through sound analysis, which the article claimed, is obviously not correct. I told that you can't do sound analysis to tell how much horsepower a car has and that's what also the quote tells.

They might have used it in combination with GPS data, but claiming odd numbers like 38 and 7 gave it away, in my opinion.
I’ll let everyone else draw the conclusions as to what you said initially, as opposed to what you’re claiming you said now.

Would have appreciated an apology, but you doubled down lol.

And to clarify, in the translated version I read, it wasn’t claiming exact numbers. It was claiming ballpark figures, and did not claim what supplementary techniques were used to arrive at the “peak” power estimates.

LM10
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Re: Mercedes-AMG F1 W10 EQ Power+

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zibby43 wrote:
Mon Apr 08, 2019 9:24 pm

I’ll let everyone else draw the conclusions as to what you said initially, as opposed to what you’re claiming you said now.

Would have appreciated an apology, but you doubled down lol.

And to clarify, in the translated version I read, it wasn’t claiming exact numbers. It was claiming ballpark figures, and did not claim what supplementary techniques were used to arrive at the “peak” power estimates.
It's not a big deal for me to apologize. I was in the wrong and thought that such an analysis to determine anything was just bs. So, apologies for that.

You should read the article again, though, it were no ballpark figures. It claimed that the engines lost power in comparison to last year. Ferrari and Mercedes are on par with 990 hp, Honda has 38 hp less and Renault another 7 hp less.

zibby43
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Re: Mercedes-AMG F1 W10 EQ Power+

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LM10 wrote:
Mon Apr 08, 2019 9:29 pm
zibby43 wrote:
Mon Apr 08, 2019 9:24 pm

I’ll let everyone else draw the conclusions as to what you said initially, as opposed to what you’re claiming you said now.

Would have appreciated an apology, but you doubled down lol.

And to clarify, in the translated version I read, it wasn’t claiming exact numbers. It was claiming ballpark figures, and did not claim what supplementary techniques were used to arrive at the “peak” power estimates.
It's not a big deal for me to apologize. I was in the wrong and thought that such an analysis to determine anything was just bs. So, apologies for that.

You should read the article again, though, it were no ballpark figures. It claimed that the engines lost power in comparison to last year. Ferrari and Mercedes are on par with 990 hp, Honda has 38 hp less and Renault another 7 hp less.
I appreciate that. Apology accepted. The numbers are free game as far as debate goes. I found an English source that did a much better job with the translation, and while the numbers are similar to the ones you referenced above, the peak values are described as "estimates." More specifically, peak number estimates. Peak numbers are very different from power curves, which can tell you how long that peak number can be sustained, etc. And the source doesn't do any speculation there.

My point was that the surveys were very well real. It makes sense that the peak numbers are down slightly in qualifying with the clampdown on oil burning. Finally, peak numbers never tell the full story. How the power delivery is mapped and utilized is also very important.

Polite
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Re: Mercedes-AMG F1 W10 EQ Power+

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zibby43 wrote:
Mon Apr 08, 2019 8:19 pm
Polite wrote:
Mon Apr 08, 2019 7:46 pm
``- If Merc really were running more downforce (which Toto and some of the engineers acknowledged, and Ferrari implied), it takes the overall advantage down to around 2-3 tenths, and that is being very conservative toward discounting the impact of setup.`` no proof for this statemant from Amus, imho.
From the translation:

"Ferrari team boss Mattia Binotto reminds us that Mercedes had more downforce and therefore lost on the straights. Toto Wolff replied. 'With better air resistance, you're only doing a tenth of a good job, but not four or five. That's sheer engine power.'"

Ferrari implied Mercedes were running more downforce. The way I read Toto's response, Toto is saying, that may have accounted for 1 tenth of the deficit, but not 4 tenths.
Yes, but im just talking about the math: on the press i saw at least 3 or 4 estimates. Amus 3/10, Toto against Binotto said 1/10 max, Binotto said 4/10.. and go on.

I think that Binotto is right when he says that Mercs have to much downforce and less speed on the straits.
but i also think that Toto is right when he says that downforce cant justify the advantage of Ferr on the straits.

there are too much factors and i cant trust noone talking about. thats my point :roll:

zibby43
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Re: Mercedes-AMG F1 W10 EQ Power+

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Polite wrote:
Tue Apr 09, 2019 9:15 pm
I think that Binotto is right when he says that Mercs have to much downforce and less speed on the straits.
but i also think that Toto is right when he says that downforce cant justify the advantage of Ferr on the straits.

there are too much factors and i cant trust noone talking about.
I think we're in agreement then.

zibby43
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Re: Mercedes-AMG F1 W10 EQ Power+

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Re: Mercedes-AMG F1 W10 EQ Power+

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New front wing

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Re: Mercedes-AMG F1 W10 EQ Power+

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Via @AlbertFabrega
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Re: Mercedes-AMG F1 W10 EQ Power+

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AMuS
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Re: Mercedes-AMG F1 W10 EQ Power+

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New FW endplate
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Good view of W10 nice packaging... and new mirror support :lol: :lol:
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zibby43
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Re: Mercedes-AMG F1 W10 EQ Power+

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Anyone have a shot of the RW? Thanks!