2019 Chinese Grand Prix - Shanghai, April 12-14

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NL_Fer
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Re: 2019 Chinese Grand Prix - Shanghai, April 12-14

Post by NL_Fer » Mon Apr 15, 2019 6:58 pm

They could have just pitted Leclerc one lap after Vettels and let Leclerc handle Verstappen. No way, that Vettel could touch Bottas. Even the swap was ot needed, just pit Vettel 1st, let him undercut Leclerc, than Leclerc could battle with Verstappen and Vettel was clear. They would ended 3-4 probably, and both would look good.

This was just bad for Vettel (looked like he needed help). Bad for Leclerc, driving a useless race and bad for Ferrari as a team. -1 for Binotto today.

Restomaniac
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Location: Hull

Re: 2019 Chinese Grand Prix - Shanghai, April 12-14

Post by Restomaniac » Mon Apr 15, 2019 7:14 pm

GrandAxe wrote:
Mon Apr 15, 2019 6:49 pm
Vasconia wrote:
Mon Apr 15, 2019 8:59 am
GrandAxe wrote:
Sun Apr 14, 2019 11:40 am


You've just listed many of the reasons many don't like to see Nico commenting around the paddock. He won a championship and failed to defend it, which is the minimum expected of a champion to keep any sport going or interesting.

Imagine if Schumacher have retired after his first WDC, or Usain Bolt after his first medal, or Muhammed Ali after his first knock out etc.

There is something wrong about someone who ran off, only to come back and talk so much about the abilities of others who have stuck in the heat for the benefit of the sport.
It is disrespectful, especially to the other WDC's on the grid (Lewis - 5 time, Seb - 4 time, Kimi 1 time and last year, Alonso - 2 time).

Sky most likely brought him back for the controversy, in this brand new world of click marketing and zero values.
Your hate for Nico make you say some very weird things. As any other driver he has the right to comment the races. In which dimension is this to be disrespectful? You can criticize that he lef the sport without defending the title but he had the right to do and this has nothing to do with his role as a commentator.
"Hate"? Use of such strong words hint at a personal attack, which is the ultimate giveaway of a person who is empty off any valid counter-argument.

Sports revolves around champions proving their pedigree and awing the spectators - at the heart of sport is the very fundamental ethos of competition. Any sport will soon wither and die without worthy champions.
In this way, any one who runs off after a championship has deeply wronged that sport; further, it only gives the distinct impression that deep in their minds they do not feel they earned it, but were simply lucky.

A person who doesn't feel up to the task has no right whatsoever to comment on those who who can, especially drivers who are single or multiple WDC's (Kimi, Alonso, Vettel and Lewis). It doesn't speak of character. This is especially worse when most of the time what is said turns out to be either inadequate or remarkably flippant, a breach of trust or even insulting e.g. Ferrari staff telling him they got their aero wrong.
Raikkonen is the prefect example of a driver who gave back. He stuck around for 2 years in a dog of a car after his title and then after driving off into the sunset he returned.

e30ernest
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Re: 2019 Chinese Grand Prix - Shanghai, April 12-14

Post by e30ernest » Mon Apr 15, 2019 7:32 pm

GrandAxe wrote:
Mon Apr 15, 2019 6:49 pm
A person who doesn't feel up to the task has no right whatsoever to comment on those who who can, especially drivers who are single or multiple WDC's (Kimi, Alonso, Vettel and Lewis). It doesn't speak of character. This is especially worse when most of the time what is said turns out to be either inadequate or remarkably flippant, a breach of trust or even insulting e.g. Ferrari staff telling him they got their aero wrong.
I don't understand this point. It's basically saying that the only person worthy enough to (constructively) criticize or share any opinion about the sport are those "who can" excel at it.

That writes off almost everyone in the media, everyone in this forums and almost every other fan.

When you view Rosberg as a fan (albeit a very knowledgeable and well-connected fan), I'd say his opinions are way more valid than anyone here or even most of the pundits covering the sport today.

His reasons for leaving the sport was also valid in my opinion, and I respect him for admitting that winning that WDC took way too much out of him mentally and emotionally because Lewis was that good. He said in his podcast (with Toto IIRC) that he needed to shut himself off the world to keep his focus and cope with the pressure. He left because he had achieved his life goal to win the WDC and he didn't want to put himself and his family through that ordeal again.

I think that was very respectable from him.

Back to the Chinese GP, I understand why Ferrari swapped their drivers, but I am worried how that would affect morale. Leclerc can potentially sink in the same way Bottas did last year while Vettel can succumb to even more pressure.

Unless Vettel has a #1 driver clause in his contract, they should have swapped them back when it became apparent Vettel couldn't chase the Mercs anyway. At the very least, they should have protected Leclerc better from the undercut (Vettel had more time to spare there).

IMO Ferrari should focus more on getting both drivers up as high as possible on the standings rather than focusing on getting one the best results possible. They are bleeding valuable points for the constructors championship.

GrandAxe
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Joined: Thu Aug 01, 2013 4:06 pm

Re: 2019 Chinese Grand Prix - Shanghai, April 12-14

Post by GrandAxe » Mon Apr 15, 2019 7:35 pm

Most in the media have never raced in F1 and all who are F1 champions defended their championships.
Last edited by GrandAxe on Mon Apr 15, 2019 7:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.

GrandAxe
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Re: 2019 Chinese Grand Prix - Shanghai, April 12-14

Post by GrandAxe » Mon Apr 15, 2019 7:38 pm

Ferrari need to look at the F1 drivers table and realise that Max is ahead of both their drivers only because of their team orders.
Team orders are unwarranted so early in the season.

Phil
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Re: 2019 Chinese Grand Prix - Shanghai, April 12-14

Post by Phil » Mon Apr 15, 2019 7:44 pm

Actually, the reason Verstappen is ahead of both is because Leclerc had a costly technical issue that cost him 10 points and because Vettel made a driving error that cost him between 15 and 8 points, not to mention Max profitted from that very mistake at Bahrain?

Apart from that, the team orders had likely ZERO impact on their relative points vs their competitors so far.
Not for nothing, Rosberg's Championship is the only thing that lends credibility to Hamilton's recent success. Otherwise, he'd just be the guy who's had the best car. — bhall II
#Team44 supporter

Restomaniac
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Location: Hull

Re: 2019 Chinese Grand Prix - Shanghai, April 12-14

Post by Restomaniac » Mon Apr 15, 2019 7:46 pm

e30ernest wrote:
Mon Apr 15, 2019 7:32 pm
GrandAxe wrote:
Mon Apr 15, 2019 6:49 pm
A person who doesn't feel up to the task has no right whatsoever to comment on those who who can, especially drivers who are single or multiple WDC's (Kimi, Alonso, Vettel and Lewis). It doesn't speak of character. This is especially worse when most of the time what is said turns out to be either inadequate or remarkably flippant, a breach of trust or even insulting e.g. Ferrari staff telling him they got their aero wrong.
I don't understand this point. It's basically saying that the only person worthy enough to (constructively) criticize or share any opinion about the sport are those "who can" excel at it.

That writes off almost everyone in the media, everyone in this forums and almost every other fan.

When you view Rosberg as a fan (albeit a very knowledgeable and well-connected fan), I'd say his opinions are way more valid than anyone here or even most of the pundits covering the sport today.

His reasons for leaving the sport was also valid in my opinion, and I respect him for admitting that winning that WDC took way too much out of him mentally and emotionally because Lewis was that good. He said in his podcast (with Toto IIRC) that he needed to shut himself off the world to keep his focus and cope with the pressure. He left because he had achieved his life goal to win the WDC and he didn't want to put himself and his family through that ordeal again.

I think that was very respectable from him.

Back to the Chinese GP, I understand why Ferrari swapped their drivers, but I am worried how that would affect morale. Leclerc can potentially sink in the same way Bottas did last year while Vettel can succumb to even more pressure.

Unless Vettel has a #1 driver clause in his contract, they should have swapped them back when it became apparent Vettel couldn't chase the Mercs anyway. At the very least, they should have protected Leclerc better from the undercut (Vettel had more time to spare there).

IMO Ferrari should focus more on getting both drivers up as high as possible on the standings rather than focusing on getting one the best results possible. They are bleeding valuable points for the constructors championship.
That is why I said Verstappen must be laughing his what-nots off with Ferrari’s antics.

So far in the first 3 races they have had 2x3rd, 1x4th and 3x5th place finishes. They can’t keep this up, they really can’t. Otherwise they could even gift a Verstappen a 3rd place in the WDC never mind Mercedes the WCC.

Restomaniac
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Location: Hull

Re: 2019 Chinese Grand Prix - Shanghai, April 12-14

Post by Restomaniac » Mon Apr 15, 2019 7:51 pm

Phil wrote:
Mon Apr 15, 2019 7:44 pm
Actually, the reason Verstappen is ahead of both is because Leclerc had a costly technical issue that cost him 10 points and because Vettel made a driving error that cost him between 15 and 8 points, not to mention Max profitted from that very mistake at Bahrain?

Apart from that, the team orders had likely ZERO impact on their relative points vs their competitors so far.
Not true. Their crap shoot in China has already gifted Verstappen 2 extra points.

Phil
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Joined: Tue Sep 25, 2012 3:22 pm

Re: 2019 Chinese Grand Prix - Shanghai, April 12-14

Post by Phil » Mon Apr 15, 2019 8:48 pm

You may think that, but it’s not certain. Hard to know for a fact one of the Ferraris would not have lost position due to the undercut anyway.

It’s undidputed though that Vettels mistake and Leclercs reliabilty cost them combined more points and that the 2 points in China therefore is a non issue.
Not for nothing, Rosberg's Championship is the only thing that lends credibility to Hamilton's recent success. Otherwise, he'd just be the guy who's had the best car. — bhall II
#Team44 supporter

Tom145145
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Re: 2019 Chinese Grand Prix - Shanghai, April 12-14

Post by Tom145145 » Mon Apr 15, 2019 8:56 pm

I don’t know if it’s been asked/discussed, but why does the dirty side (even side) of the grid at the first 3 race seem to have lots more rubber laid down? Could this be why pole keeps loosing out? In China the even side got noticeably better starts up to Gas.

GrandAxe
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Re: 2019 Chinese Grand Prix - Shanghai, April 12-14

Post by GrandAxe » Mon Apr 15, 2019 9:03 pm

Restomaniac wrote:
Mon Apr 15, 2019 7:51 pm
Phil wrote:
Mon Apr 15, 2019 7:44 pm
Actually, the reason Verstappen is ahead of both is because Leclerc had a costly technical issue that cost him 10 points and because Vettel made a driving error that cost him between 15 and 8 points, not to mention Max profitted from that very mistake at Bahrain?

Apart from that, the team orders had likely ZERO impact on their relative points vs their competitors so far.
Not true. Their crap shoot in China has already gifted Verstappen 2 extra points.
Its even more than 2 points, its 5. Just look at the points awarded for each place:

3rd place 15 points
4th place 12 points
5th place 10 points

If not for team orders, Leclerc and Vettel would have finished 3rd and 4th ahead of Max in 5th.

The current WDC for the three drivers is:

3 Max 39
4 Vettel 37
5 Lecerc 36

If Vettel had finished 3rd and Leclerc 4th, it would have been:

3 Vettel 40
4 Leclerc 38
5 Max 34

If instead, Leclerc had finished 3rd and Vettel 4th, it would have been:

3 Leclerc 41
4 Vettel 37
5 Max 34

Restomaniac
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Location: Hull

Re: 2019 Chinese Grand Prix - Shanghai, April 12-14

Post by Restomaniac » Mon Apr 15, 2019 9:18 pm

Phil wrote:
Mon Apr 15, 2019 8:48 pm
You may think that, but it’s not certain. Hard to know for a fact one of the Ferraris would not have lost position due to the undercut anyway.

It’s undidputed though that Vettels mistake and Leclercs reliabilty cost them combined more points and that the 2 points in China therefore is a non issue.
He may have got an undercut but let us be honest here. The Ferrari with DRS should have eaten the RedBull alive. Instead they totally screwed Leclerc and gave him no real chance of even that chance. So yes the Ferrari crap shoot GIFTED Verstappen 4th and 2 points without so much as a fight.

So far this season Ferrari have been awful in Melbourne. Had a very off colour Vettel and a Ferrari engine failure in Bahrain and now Ferrari have pretty much said ‘Here Max have an extra 2 points with no hassle’. So yes I imagine Verstappen is chuckling at Ferrari ATM.
Last edited by Restomaniac on Mon Apr 15, 2019 9:34 pm, edited 4 times in total.

Restomaniac
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Location: Hull

Re: 2019 Chinese Grand Prix - Shanghai, April 12-14

Post by Restomaniac » Mon Apr 15, 2019 9:21 pm

GrandAxe wrote:
Mon Apr 15, 2019 9:03 pm
Restomaniac wrote:
Mon Apr 15, 2019 7:51 pm
Phil wrote:
Mon Apr 15, 2019 7:44 pm
Actually, the reason Verstappen is ahead of both is because Leclerc had a costly technical issue that cost him 10 points and because Vettel made a driving error that cost him between 15 and 8 points, not to mention Max profitted from that very mistake at Bahrain?

Apart from that, the team orders had likely ZERO impact on their relative points vs their competitors so far.
Not true. Their crap shoot in China has already gifted Verstappen 2 extra points.
Its even more than 2 points, its 5. Just look at the points awarded for each place:

3rd place 15 points
4th place 12 points
5th place 10 points

If not for team orders, Leclerc and Vettel would have finished 3rd and 4th ahead of Max in 5th.

The current WDC for the three drivers is:

3 Max 39
4 Vettel 37
5 Lecerc 36

If Vettel had finished 3rd and Leclerc 4th, it would have been:

3 Vettel 40
4 Leclerc 38
5 Max 34

If instead, Leclerc had finished 3rd and Vettel 4th, it would have been:

3 Leclerc 41
4 Vettel 37
5 Max 34
Verstappen finished 4th(12) though. He should have finished 5th(10).

Just_a_fan
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Re: 2019 Chinese Grand Prix - Shanghai, April 12-14

Post by Just_a_fan » Mon Apr 15, 2019 9:45 pm

Tom145145 wrote:
Mon Apr 15, 2019 8:56 pm
I don’t know if it’s been asked/discussed, but why does the dirty side (even side) of the grid at the first 3 race seem to have lots more rubber laid down? Could this be why pole keeps loosing out? In China the even side got noticeably better starts up to Gas.
There was a comment during the race that it might have been the support races laying down more rubber. The earlier races would have been on the dirty line and thus would have more wheelspin. Thus more rubber laid down. They might also have spun their wheels at the start of the formation lap to get some rubber down. The later F1 race appears to have benefitted from this extra rubber.
Turbo says "Dumpster sounds so much more classy. It's the diamond of the cesspools." oh, and "The Dutch fans are drunk. Maybe"

dans79
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Location: USA

Re: 2019 Chinese Grand Prix - Shanghai, April 12-14

Post by dans79 » Mon Apr 15, 2019 10:28 pm

GrandAxe wrote:
Mon Apr 15, 2019 6:49 pm
In this way, any one who runs off after a championship has deeply wronged that sport; further, it only gives the distinct impression that deep in their minds they do not feel they earned it, but were simply lucky.
GrandAxe wrote:
Mon Apr 15, 2019 6:49 pm
A person who doesn't feel up to the task has no right whatsoever to comment on those who who can, especially drivers who are single or multiple WDC's (Kimi, Alonso, Vettel and Lewis). It doesn't speak of character.
I'm going to take it that you have never been a very competitive athlete of any form? As someone who has, I find both of these statements utterly ludicrous.