2019 Spanish Grand Prix - Catalunya, May 10-12

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GPR -A
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Re: 2019 Spanish Grand Prix - Catalunya, May 10-12

Post by GPR -A » Thu May 16, 2019 1:00 pm

Jolle wrote:
Thu May 16, 2019 12:49 pm
sosic2121 wrote:
Thu May 16, 2019 10:19 am
marvin78 wrote:
Tue May 14, 2019 11:58 am
I wonder how fast the 2004 car would have been with Slick tyres.
And active aerodynamics.
oh... and active suspension, ground effect skirts and a blower on the back! with a turbo engine without restrictors and one lap qualifying tires. and that 150RON fuel!!
And the double diffuser, blown exhausts, the FRIC, Traction Control and everything else under the sun.

Restomaniac
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Re: 2019 Spanish Grand Prix - Catalunya, May 10-12

Post by Restomaniac » Thu May 16, 2019 2:19 pm

GPR -A wrote:
Thu May 16, 2019 1:00 pm
Jolle wrote:
Thu May 16, 2019 12:49 pm
sosic2121 wrote:
Thu May 16, 2019 10:19 am

And active aerodynamics.
oh... and active suspension, ground effect skirts and a blower on the back! with a turbo engine without restrictors and one lap qualifying tires. and that 150RON fuel!!
And the double diffuser, blown exhausts, the FRIC, Traction Control and everything else under the sun.
Thus probably making them too fast for a Human to drive.

LM10
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Re: 2019 Spanish Grand Prix - Catalunya, May 10-12

Post by LM10 » Thu May 16, 2019 9:24 pm

Telemetry Vettel vs. Bottas - Q3 Barcelona

https://4.bp.blogspot.com/-iTcvyARjIJ0/ ... Q32019.png

sosic2121
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Re: 2019 Spanish Grand Prix - Catalunya, May 10-12

Post by sosic2121 » Thu May 16, 2019 9:35 pm

GPR -A wrote:
Thu May 16, 2019 1:00 pm
Jolle wrote:
Thu May 16, 2019 12:49 pm
sosic2121 wrote:
Thu May 16, 2019 10:19 am

And active aerodynamics.
oh... and active suspension, ground effect skirts and a blower on the back! with a turbo engine without restrictors and one lap qualifying tires. and that 150RON fuel!!
And the double diffuser, blown exhausts, the FRIC, Traction Control and everything else under the sun.
You both missed the point, which is the hype about current "fastest ever" cars, which are also so "incredibly efficient" while also being totally road relevant.

Today's cars have active aerodynamics. Neither car had FRIC, DD, EBD...

LM10
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Re: 2019 Spanish Grand Prix - Catalunya, May 10-12

Post by LM10 » Thu May 16, 2019 10:05 pm

So, after having seen how Mercedes humiliated the rest of the field in Barcelona, is there anyone who thinks that Ferrari and/or Red Bull will be able to catch up anytime soon? I highly doubt that this will happen even next season. The simple reason is that the concept Mercedes has gone for is basically the one they've been using for many years now. No team has more experience on how to operate it perfectly and I don't see the other top teams changing their concepts to a Mercedes-esque one and suddenly be on Mercdedes-level.
Mercedes has constantly improved their car over the course of this season. There has not been any race without them putting upgrades on their car and they already have other goodies in the pipeline which certainly aren't good news for the others. There is massive potential in the car due to the regulation changes.

Even if it might sound pretty frustrating for any fan of another team (just like me), in my opinion we more or less can already fast forward to 2021 and if I were the other top teams I would focus more on that car instead of the 2020 one. But then again, Mercedes would just do the same, seeing that their advantage is that big already. I don't see another way than praying to god that Mercedes don't get it all right for 2021 again...

Zynerji
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Re: 2019 Spanish Grand Prix - Catalunya, May 10-12

Post by Zynerji » Thu May 16, 2019 10:40 pm

sosic2121 wrote:
Thu May 16, 2019 9:35 pm
GPR -A wrote:
Thu May 16, 2019 1:00 pm
Jolle wrote:
Thu May 16, 2019 12:49 pm


oh... and active suspension, ground effect skirts and a blower on the back! with a turbo engine without restrictors and one lap qualifying tires. and that 150RON fuel!!
And the double diffuser, blown exhausts, the FRIC, Traction Control and everything else under the sun.
You both missed the point, which is the hype about current "fastest ever" cars, which are also so "incredibly efficient" while also being totally road relevant.

Today's cars have active aerodynamics. Neither car had FRIC, DD, EBD...
Please provide any article where the currrent "road relevant" F1 tech has been applied in the consumer sphere.

Secrecy of design/operation is NOT road-relevance.

zibby43
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Joined: Sat Mar 04, 2017 11:16 am

Re: 2019 Spanish Grand Prix - Catalunya, May 10-12

Post by zibby43 » Thu May 16, 2019 11:20 pm

LM10 wrote:
Thu May 16, 2019 10:05 pm
So, after having seen how Mercedes humiliated the rest of the field in Barcelona, is there anyone who thinks that Ferrari and/or Red Bull will be able to catch up anytime soon? I highly doubt that this will happen even next season. The simple reason is that the concept Mercedes has gone for is basically the one they've been using for many years now. No team has more experience on how to operate it perfectly and I don't see the other top teams changing their concepts to a Mercedes-esque one and suddenly be on Mercdedes-level.
Mercedes has constantly improved their car over the course of this season. There has not been any race without them putting upgrades on their car and they already have other goodies in the pipeline which certainly aren't good news for the others. There is massive potential in the car due to the regulation changes.
Good question. 2021 is a complete toss-up at this point, with so much uncertainty regarding the regulations at this point.

In terms of this season and 2020, I think Ferrari and Red Bull have to continue to push. As you hinted at, it's going to depend on Mercedes' rate of development going forward. From what Toto and other team personnel have said, it seems like Mercedes still has quite a few bits in the pipeline on both the chassis and PU side. It's rare for them to be this "bullish" on future upgrades.

They're going to continue to push hard, considering they know that any benefits from this year's development race will be carried forward into 2020 (thanks to no regulation changes next year).

As AMuS has indicated, I think Ferrari has the potential to be very competitive at places like Canada, Austria, Spa, and Monza, just by virtue of their efficient design and the lack of slow corners at these venues. I think Russia will be a tough one to predict because the track surface is so smooth there, it is very hard to get energy into the tires (similar to Melbourne and Baku).

A lot will depend on the step that Mercedes makes with their Spec 2 PU, and what their future, low-downforce specification packages will look like.

Just_a_fan
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Re: 2019 Spanish Grand Prix - Catalunya, May 10-12

Post by Just_a_fan » Fri May 17, 2019 12:00 am

LM10 wrote:
Thu May 16, 2019 9:24 pm
Telemetry Vettel vs. Bottas - Q3 Barcelona

https://4.bp.blogspot.com/-iTcvyARjIJ0/ ... Q32019.png
Interesting how the arrows point to the obvious stuff- top speed and apex speed - while missing the important marginal stuff. Bottas is later on tbe brakes and is ahead in the early acceleration zones.

Look at the areas between the two traces - that's where the difference in lap time lies. The big stuff pointed out by the arrows likely cancels out, more or less, but the other areas where the cars are accelerating or braking is where the Mercedes is eating tenths here, there and everywhere.
Turbo says "Dumpster sounds so much more classy. It's the diamond of the cesspools." oh, and "The Dutch fans are drunk. Maybe"

Just_a_fan
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Joined: Sun Jan 31, 2010 7:37 pm

Re: 2019 Spanish Grand Prix - Catalunya, May 10-12

Post by Just_a_fan » Fri May 17, 2019 12:08 am

LM10 wrote:
Thu May 16, 2019 10:05 pm
The simple reason is that the concept Mercedes has gone for is basically the one they've been using for many years now.
Not sure that's true. Mercedes previously massively relied on the outer section of the front wing and the cascades to get their performance. They lost all of that with the winter rule changes. James Allison discussed this in a video. They lost several seconds of lap time because of the changes. They then had to regain that. The two different cars in testing is testament to this.

What Mercedes have done is develop the solution better and quicker than anyone else. That's what is so impressive about their performance. They really were behind at the start of testing. They came back from that to have a winning car.
Turbo says "Dumpster sounds so much more classy. It's the diamond of the cesspools." oh, and "The Dutch fans are drunk. Maybe"

Mansell89
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Re: 2019 Spanish Grand Prix - Catalunya, May 10-12

Post by Mansell89 » Fri May 17, 2019 8:01 am

Do we have any chunky data around sector 3 times for both quali and race from Barcelona?

I’d like to see how the teams compare. We know Merc were strongest but I wanted to have a comparison of the rest of the field with a view to Monaco.

Juzh
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Re: 2019 Spanish Grand Prix - Catalunya, May 10-12

Post by Juzh » Fri May 17, 2019 8:08 am

Just_a_fan wrote:
Fri May 17, 2019 12:00 am
LM10 wrote:
Thu May 16, 2019 9:24 pm
Telemetry Vettel vs. Bottas - Q3 Barcelona

https://4.bp.blogspot.com/-iTcvyARjIJ0/ ... Q32019.png
Interesting how the arrows point to the obvious stuff- top speed and apex speed - while missing the important marginal stuff. Bottas is later on tbe brakes and is ahead in the early acceleration zones.

Look at the areas between the two traces - that's where the difference in lap time lies. The big stuff pointed out by the arrows likely cancels out, more or less, but the other areas where the cars are accelerating or braking is where the Mercedes is eating tenths here, there and everywhere.
And why is vettel blue and bottas red? :lol: #-o quite a fundamental thing to get wrong.

sosic2121
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Re: 2019 Spanish Grand Prix - Catalunya, May 10-12

Post by sosic2121 » Fri May 17, 2019 8:12 am

Zynerji wrote:
Thu May 16, 2019 10:40 pm
sosic2121 wrote:
Thu May 16, 2019 9:35 pm
GPR -A wrote:
Thu May 16, 2019 1:00 pm
And the double diffuser, blown exhausts, the FRIC, Traction Control and everything else under the sun.
You both missed the point, which is the hype about current "fastest ever" cars, which are also so "incredibly efficient" while also being totally road relevant.

Today's cars have active aerodynamics. Neither car had FRIC, DD, EBD...
Please provide any article where the currrent "road relevant" F1 tech has been applied in the consumer sphere.

Secrecy of design/operation is NOT road-relevance.
I was being sarcastic.

Road relevance was one of the main reasons for change to 1.6T engines. I agree that there is no road relevance.

I really don't like current formula and especially "fastest/best ever" hype that surrounds it.

Schuttelberg
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Joined: Mon Jul 27, 2015 11:02 am

Re: 2019 Spanish Grand Prix - Catalunya, May 10-12

Post by Schuttelberg » Fri May 17, 2019 8:49 am

zibby43 wrote:
Thu May 16, 2019 11:20 pm
LM10 wrote:
Thu May 16, 2019 10:05 pm
So, after having seen how Mercedes humiliated the rest of the field in Barcelona, is there anyone who thinks that Ferrari and/or Red Bull will be able to catch up anytime soon? I highly doubt that this will happen even next season. The simple reason is that the concept Mercedes has gone for is basically the one they've been using for many years now. No team has more experience on how to operate it perfectly and I don't see the other top teams changing their concepts to a Mercedes-esque one and suddenly be on Mercdedes-level.
Mercedes has constantly improved their car over the course of this season. There has not been any race without them putting upgrades on their car and they already have other goodies in the pipeline which certainly aren't good news for the others. There is massive potential in the car due to the regulation changes.
Good question. 2021 is a complete toss-up at this point, with so much uncertainty regarding the regulations at this point.

In terms of this season and 2020, I think Ferrari and Red Bull have to continue to push. As you hinted at, it's going to depend on Mercedes' rate of development going forward. From what Toto and other team personnel have said, it seems like Mercedes still has quite a few bits in the pipeline on both the chassis and PU side. It's rare for them to be this "bullish" on future upgrades.

They're going to continue to push hard, considering they know that any benefits from this year's development race will be carried forward into 2020 (thanks to no regulation changes next year).

As AMuS has indicated, I think Ferrari has the potential to be very competitive at places like Canada, Austria, Spa, and Monza, just by virtue of their efficient design and the lack of slow corners at these venues. I think Russia will be a tough one to predict because the track surface is so smooth there, it is very hard to get energy into the tires (similar to Melbourne and Baku).

A lot will depend on the step that Mercedes makes with their Spec 2 PU, and what their future, low-downforce specification packages will look like.
All four circuits mentioned by you have hairpins/chicanes or are really start/stop in nature. Ferrari's straight line speed offset to Mercedes is very little (unless you believe the blasphemy that Toto and lately his drivers have been dishing out) but the time is won and lost in those twisty bits. I expect a monumental struggle even on these tracks, specially if they can't reel in the tyres.
"Sebastian there's very, you're a member of a very select few.. Stewart, Lauda, Piquet, Senna, Prost, Schumacher, Fangio.. VETTEL!"

LM10
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Re: 2019 Spanish Grand Prix - Catalunya, May 10-12

Post by LM10 » Fri May 17, 2019 1:18 pm

zibby43 wrote:
Thu May 16, 2019 11:20 pm
As AMuS has indicated, I think Ferrari has the potential to be very competitive at places like Canada, Austria, Spa, and Monza, just by virtue of their efficient design and the lack of slow corners at these venues. I think Russia will be a tough one to predict because the track surface is so smooth there, it is very hard to get energy into the tires (similar to Melbourne and Baku).
Their competitiveness on just a few tracks will not be of any big interest as their only goal is to be world champions.


Just_a_fan wrote:
Fri May 17, 2019 12:08 am
LM10 wrote:
Thu May 16, 2019 10:05 pm
The simple reason is that the concept Mercedes has gone for is basically the one they've been using for many years now.
Not sure that's true. Mercedes previously massively relied on the outer section of the front wing and the cascades to get their performance. They lost all of that with the winter rule changes. James Allison discussed this in a video. They lost several seconds of lap time because of the changes. They then had to regain that. The two different cars in testing is testament to this.

What Mercedes have done is develop the solution better and quicker than anyone else. That's what is so impressive about their performance. They really were behind at the start of testing. They came back from that to have a winning car.
Got you, though, I rather meant their low-rake and long wheelbase philosophy. That's a key combination for this year's regulations.
Other than that, you're right. Their highly complex front wing approach has been their trademark for many years, but they still managed to compensate it by highly complex bargebaords, this time. And that's a quality sign.

dans79
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Location: USA

Re: 2019 Spanish Grand Prix - Catalunya, May 10-12

Post by dans79 » Fri May 17, 2019 1:40 pm

Schuttelberg wrote:
Fri May 17, 2019 8:49 am
All four circuits mentioned by you have hairpins/chicanes or are really start/stop in nature.
Yep, take a look at Canada.
  • Turn 1 - 160 Kph
  • Turn 2 - 85 Kph
  • Turn 3 - 145 Kph
  • Turn 6 - 115 Kph
  • Turn 8 - 135 Kph
  • Turn 10 - 80 Kph
  • Turn 13 - 150 Kph
I think the hairpin will be very painful for them, as Merc and RBR will carry a lot more speed through it.