Silly Season 2018/2019

Post here all non technical related topics about Formula One. This includes race results, discussions, testing analysis etc. TV coverage and other personal questions should be in Off topic chat.
Pyrone89
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Re: Silly Season 2018/2019

Post by Pyrone89 » Sat Jul 20, 2019 5:04 pm

NathanOlder wrote:
Sat Jul 20, 2019 12:59 pm
Zarathustra wrote:
Sat Jul 20, 2019 11:54 am

Ps.
Didn’t Hamilton mention that he wanted to make Mercedes the most successfull team in F1 history?
It depends on how you look at it, but by winning this years titels- they will be the most successfull team with 6 straight WCC’s + WDC’s ...
He can't be talking about titles or wins as Merc are so so so far behind Ferrari and even Mclaren.
Not on this rate :lol:

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Re: Silly Season 2018/2019

Post by NathanOlder » Sat Jul 20, 2019 5:40 pm

Pyrone89 wrote:
Sat Jul 20, 2019 5:04 pm
NathanOlder wrote:
Sat Jul 20, 2019 12:59 pm
Zarathustra wrote:
Sat Jul 20, 2019 11:54 am

Ps.
Didn’t Hamilton mention that he wanted to make Mercedes the most successfull team in F1 history?
It depends on how you look at it, but by winning this years titels- they will be the most successfull team with 6 straight WCC’s + WDC’s ...
He can't be talking about titles or wins as Merc are so so so far behind Ferrari and even Mclaren.
Not on this rate :lol:
Seriously though, Merc have 5 WCC and will be 6 this year. Ferrari have 15 or 16. So maybe Hamilton will need to help Merc win the next 10 WCC's
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Pyrone89
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Re: Silly Season 2018/2019

Post by Pyrone89 » Sat Jul 20, 2019 7:04 pm

Nobody said he needed to drive in all of them. He could become a team managerv :mrgreen:

sAx
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Re: Silly Season 2018/2019

Post by sAx » Sat Jul 20, 2019 7:49 pm

Pyrone89 wrote:
Sat Jul 20, 2019 2:35 am
sAx wrote:
Sat Jul 20, 2019 12:28 am
Pyrone89 wrote:
Wed Jul 17, 2019 10:48 pm


Disagree, with winning a WDC at Ferrari he can show that he is not just a very good but 1x WDC who got a bunch of free titles and wins in the most dominant team to ever grace the sport.
If you put Max (Chilton!) in the Merc he would be a 5X WDC, or Webber or Jolyon or Buemi or Vergne or Button or Grosjean or di Resta or Bourdais or Chandok or Karthikeyan or Maldonado or... (all of them beating Rosberg on the way!). As i understand it the Merc is actually that good, it doesn't actually require a driver!! Just a bunch of free titles... :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:
Button yes, Rosberg yes, Webber yes, Verge would at least be a multi-WDC but he would have lost some. With the others you are just trolling. It is obvious that I was meaning that other good drivers would have also racked up these titles because of the car, no need to be an elite driver (which Hamilton still is). But his stats and Schumachers are massively inflated because of the cars and competition they had vs Senna, Prost, Laude, Clark etc.
Personally I saw it as a response to the absurd rather than a casual attempt to advance a convenient label reply!
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Zarathustra
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Re: Silly Season 2018/2019

Post by Zarathustra » Sat Jul 20, 2019 9:42 pm

NathanOlder wrote:
Sat Jul 20, 2019 5:40 pm
Pyrone89 wrote:
Sat Jul 20, 2019 5:04 pm
NathanOlder wrote:
Sat Jul 20, 2019 12:59 pm


He can't be talking about titles or wins as Merc are so so so far behind Ferrari and even Mclaren.
Not on this rate :lol:
Seriously though, Merc have 5 WCC and will be 6 this year. Ferrari have 15 or 16. So maybe Hamilton will need to help Merc win the next 10 WCC's
In absolute numbers you’re right- that’s why I mentioned ‘it depends on how you look at it’.

But 6 consecutive double titles is a feed never done before in F1 history- which could be seen as most successful.

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Re: Silly Season 2018/2019

Post by Chuckjr » Sun Jul 21, 2019 10:08 am

Phil wrote:
Sat Jul 20, 2019 11:41 am
That stuff is old school. Teams now have hundreds if not thousand of employees that are all part of the success of the team. In the end, once he retires, all that will ever matter is how many championships he will have. No one will care how he got them or how they were won, just as little as people will remember Hamilton's great drives like last year in Monza or Hockenheim. Over time, all that will stay with people is the number of championships he won. Depending on how one's performance goes, some might not even remember that and focus on the performance of his last races. Just look at Vettel - a 4 time world champion. Now everyone seems to talk of is how many mistakes he made in races he should have won.
Nah. People will remember the distinct advantage Hamilton had in his career (even starting as a rookie in a championship capable car) just like people remember Schumi winning in a Ferrari that should not have been winning early in his Ferrari career, or later Fred beating Schumi in a Renault after the Ferrari became completely dominant. Fred basically put Mike into early retirement. People remember that stuff. It’s not as cut and dry as you’d like it to be because everyone knows what’s really been going on for a while now. The Championships Merc are acquiring are more coronations than championships. You know it. I know it. Everybody knows it. Great for them. Awesome job. But racing history and what really went down doesn’t just die off like you think. Championship count is not all people remember, and how a driver acquired them does matter and is remembered.

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Re: Silly Season 2018/2019

Post by Jolle » Sun Jul 21, 2019 10:21 am

Chuckjr wrote:
Sun Jul 21, 2019 10:08 am
Phil wrote:
Sat Jul 20, 2019 11:41 am
That stuff is old school. Teams now have hundreds if not thousand of employees that are all part of the success of the team. In the end, once he retires, all that will ever matter is how many championships he will have. No one will care how he got them or how they were won, just as little as people will remember Hamilton's great drives like last year in Monza or Hockenheim. Over time, all that will stay with people is the number of championships he won. Depending on how one's performance goes, some might not even remember that and focus on the performance of his last races. Just look at Vettel - a 4 time world champion. Now everyone seems to talk of is how many mistakes he made in races he should have won.
Nah. People will remember the distinct advantage Hamilton had in his career (even starting as a rookie in a championship capable car) just like people remember Schumi winning in a Ferrari that should not have been winning early in his Ferrari career, or later Fred beating Schumi in a Renault after the Ferrari became completely dominant. Fred basically put Mike into early retirement. People remember that stuff. It’s not as cut and dry as you’d like it to be because everyone knows what’s really been going on for a while now. The Championships Merc are acquiring are more coronations than championships. You know it. I know it. Everybody knows it. Great for them. Awesome job. But racing history and what really went down doesn’t just die off like you think. Championship count is not all people remember, and how a driver acquired them does matter and is remembered.
It's just how you look at it.... My memories of Schumacher was that of the guy who's career was clouded with a cheating team, bumping into other drivers to win championships and had his first run of succes without any other world champion on the grid. Great champion with a nasty side.

Just_a_fan
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Re: Silly Season 2018/2019

Post by Just_a_fan » Sun Jul 21, 2019 10:50 am

Chuckjr wrote:
Sun Jul 21, 2019 10:08 am

Nah. People will remember the distinct advantage Hamilton had in his career (even starting as a rookie in a championship capable car) just like people remember Schumi winning in a Ferrari that should not have been winning early in his Ferrari career, or later Fred beating Schumi in a Renault after the Ferrari became completely dominant. Fred basically put Mike into early retirement. People remember that stuff.
But they forget, it seems, that the rules were changed to prevent tyre changes. This massively hampered Bridgestone - and thus Schumacher/Ferrari - just as was intended. Alonso benefitted.

Of course, as with all situations in F1, the driver has to be able to take the advantage given to him and turn it in to wins. Alonso did so in 2005, just as Hamilton did in 2007 when he beat Alonso, and just as he had subsequently at Mercedes. As has Alonso at Le Mans.
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Re: Silly Season 2018/2019

Post by Phil » Sun Jul 21, 2019 11:34 am

Chuckjr wrote:
Sun Jul 21, 2019 10:08 am
Nah. People will remember the distinct advantage Hamilton had in his career (even starting as a rookie in a championship capable car) just like people remember Schumi winning in a Ferrari that should not have been winning early in his Ferrari career, or later Fred beating Schumi in a Renault after the Ferrari became completely dominant.
With all due respect, but you're watching the wrong sport if you think there's any true merit to the achievements of a driver. It's a team-sport, mainly dictated by how much resources and money one can throw at it. It devalues anything a driver may have achieved, because without the team, the driver's achievements are nothing.

The only true benchmark we have of any driver, is his performance against his team-mate in the same car. We'll never have a true measure of how driver A would perform against driver B in another team unless they drive in equal machinery. We do get a rough pecking order of drivers, but it's not exact science. Hamilton could possibly be the best of this generation, but unless he ever drives against Vettel or Verstappen, Leclerc, Ricciardo in the same car, it's just assumptions. Any of those could be better when placed in the same team, there's no way to know for certain.

I'll happily admit, I believe Hamilton is the best of that group, including Verstappen, but Verstappen still has room to grow. One thing that is undisputed is that as a team-and-driver package, Hamilton and Mercedes are the dominating force of F1 of the last 5 years. Nothing more, nothing less. Hamilton without Mercedes would be nothing more than what we see Alonso as; possibly one of the best drivers in F1 without the car to prove it.

Therefore, even if Hamilton would go to Ferrari to prove anything - it would simply start the whole conversation from new. Best driver in probably the best car wins, just as Hamilton gets it now having achieved that with Mercedes after previously driving for McLaren. It's a never ending cycle of arguments.

If you want to see the best athletes compared fairly against other athletes, go and watch Tennis. Or Olympics. F1 is just a sport/business where the car and team accounts for most of the drivers achievements.

And I'm saying this as a big Hamilton fan who does believe that Hamilton is probably the driver of a generation. But you will never be able to prove that with hard numbers because that's just not how F1 works.
Not for nothing, Rosberg's Championship is the only thing that lends credibility to Hamilton's recent success. Otherwise, he'd just be the guy who's had the best car. — bhall II
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Re: Silly Season 2018/2019

Post by djos » Sun Jul 21, 2019 11:47 am

Jolle wrote:
Sun Jul 21, 2019 10:21 am
Chuckjr wrote:
Sun Jul 21, 2019 10:08 am
Phil wrote:
Sat Jul 20, 2019 11:41 am
That stuff is old school. Teams now have hundreds if not thousand of employees that are all part of the success of the team. In the end, once he retires, all that will ever matter is how many championships he will have. No one will care how he got them or how they were won, just as little as people will remember Hamilton's great drives like last year in Monza or Hockenheim. Over time, all that will stay with people is the number of championships he won. Depending on how one's performance goes, some might not even remember that and focus on the performance of his last races. Just look at Vettel - a 4 time world champion. Now everyone seems to talk of is how many mistakes he made in races he should have won.
Nah. People will remember the distinct advantage Hamilton had in his career (even starting as a rookie in a championship capable car) just like people remember Schumi winning in a Ferrari that should not have been winning early in his Ferrari career, or later Fred beating Schumi in a Renault after the Ferrari became completely dominant. Fred basically put Mike into early retirement. People remember that stuff. It’s not as cut and dry as you’d like it to be because everyone knows what’s really been going on for a while now. The Championships Merc are acquiring are more coronations than championships. You know it. I know it. Everybody knows it. Great for them. Awesome job. But racing history and what really went down doesn’t just die off like you think. Championship count is not all people remember, and how a driver acquired them does matter and is remembered.
It's just how you look at it.... My memories of Schumacher was that of the guy who's career was clouded with a cheating team, bumping into other drivers to win championships and had his first run of succes without any other world champion on the grid. Great champion with a nasty side.
Same here, he was talented but utterly ruthless. I have a lot more respect for Senna, Prost, Alonso and Hamilton.
The impossible often has a kind of integrity which the merely improbable lacks.

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Re: Silly Season 2018/2019

Post by GPR -A » Sun Jul 21, 2019 2:01 pm

Jolle wrote:
Sun Jul 21, 2019 10:21 am
Chuckjr wrote:
Sun Jul 21, 2019 10:08 am
Phil wrote:
Sat Jul 20, 2019 11:41 am
That stuff is old school. Teams now have hundreds if not thousand of employees that are all part of the success of the team. In the end, once he retires, all that will ever matter is how many championships he will have. No one will care how he got them or how they were won, just as little as people will remember Hamilton's great drives like last year in Monza or Hockenheim. Over time, all that will stay with people is the number of championships he won. Depending on how one's performance goes, some might not even remember that and focus on the performance of his last races. Just look at Vettel - a 4 time world champion. Now everyone seems to talk of is how many mistakes he made in races he should have won.
Nah. People will remember the distinct advantage Hamilton had in his career (even starting as a rookie in a championship capable car) just like people remember Schumi winning in a Ferrari that should not have been winning early in his Ferrari career, or later Fred beating Schumi in a Renault after the Ferrari became completely dominant. Fred basically put Mike into early retirement. People remember that stuff. It’s not as cut and dry as you’d like it to be because everyone knows what’s really been going on for a while now. The Championships Merc are acquiring are more coronations than championships. You know it. I know it. Everybody knows it. Great for them. Awesome job. But racing history and what really went down doesn’t just die off like you think. Championship count is not all people remember, and how a driver acquired them does matter and is remembered.
It's just how you look at it.... My memories of Schumacher was that of the guy who's career was clouded with a cheating team, bumping into other drivers to win championships and had his first run of succes without any other world champion on the grid. Great champion with a nasty side.
You would not want to regard Nigel while he was there on the grid in 1994? OR the yet to be champions, Damon and Mika from 1995 onwards? OR the likes of Mika, Montoya, Kimi and Alonso in the successful years of Ferrari?

Even if there was a champion (whatever your definition is) on the grid, like Piquet and Nigel from 1988-1990, what competition did they offer to Senna and Prost in a dominating car? What competition did Senna offered to Nigel and Prost in 1992-93? What competition did Alonso, Kimi, Button and Hamilton offered to Vettel from 2011-2013? What competition did Alonso, , Button, Kimi and Vettel offered to Hamilton and Nico from 2014-2016? Compare that to Michael who fought Damon, Villeneuve, Mika, Kimi and Alonso over the years.

Till date, no driver has shown the guts to leave a championship winning team to a struggling team looking for rejuvenation, revival, redemption and rediscover the lost aura and then make history with that team. Drivers like Senna and Hamilton left a team dejected as they did not stand a chance to compete at the front. Hamilton at least gave good 4 years waiting for the next round of success, but Senna couldn't wait longer than 2 years!!!

It's easy to jump into a winning car and win, but it takes special ability to do something as special as what Michael did with Ferrari. History will always remember Ferrari as synonymous with Michael. That is greatness.

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Re: Silly Season 2018/2019

Post by Jolle » Sun Jul 21, 2019 2:41 pm

GPR -A wrote:
Sun Jul 21, 2019 2:01 pm
Jolle wrote:
Sun Jul 21, 2019 10:21 am
Chuckjr wrote:
Sun Jul 21, 2019 10:08 am


Nah. People will remember the distinct advantage Hamilton had in his career (even starting as a rookie in a championship capable car) just like people remember Schumi winning in a Ferrari that should not have been winning early in his Ferrari career, or later Fred beating Schumi in a Renault after the Ferrari became completely dominant. Fred basically put Mike into early retirement. People remember that stuff. It’s not as cut and dry as you’d like it to be because everyone knows what’s really been going on for a while now. The Championships Merc are acquiring are more coronations than championships. You know it. I know it. Everybody knows it. Great for them. Awesome job. But racing history and what really went down doesn’t just die off like you think. Championship count is not all people remember, and how a driver acquired them does matter and is remembered.
It's just how you look at it.... My memories of Schumacher was that of the guy who's career was clouded with a cheating team, bumping into other drivers to win championships and had his first run of succes without any other world champion on the grid. Great champion with a nasty side.
You would not want to regard Nigel while he was there on the grid in 1994? OR the yet to be champions, Damon and Mika from 1995 onwards? OR the likes of Mika, Montoya, Kimi and Alonso in the successful years of Ferrari?

Even if there was a champion (whatever your definition is) on the grid, like Piquet and Nigel from 1988-1990, what competition did they offer to Senna and Prost in a dominating car? What competition did Senna offered to Nigel and Prost in 1992-93? What competition did Alonso, Kimi, Button and Hamilton offered to Vettel from 2011-2013? What competition did Alonso, , Button, Kimi and Vettel offered to Hamilton and Nico from 2014-2016? Compare that to Michael who fought Damon, Villeneuve, Mika, Kimi and Alonso over the years.

Till date, no driver has shown the guts to leave a championship winning team to a struggling team looking for rejuvenation, revival, redemption and rediscover the lost aura and then make history with that team. Drivers like Senna and Hamilton left a team dejected as they did not stand a chance to compete at the front. Hamilton at least gave good 4 years waiting for the next round of success, but Senna couldn't wait longer than 2 years!!!

It's easy to jump into a winning car and win, but it takes special ability to do something as special as what Michael did with Ferrari. History will always remember Ferrari as synonymous with Michael. That is greatness.
I think your glasses are a bit tainted. 1994 and 1995 were not the most interesting lineups. Bit like Vettel, Hamilton and Räikkönen would retire now and next year it would be Verstappen vs Bottas.

And for the move to Ferrari, yes, brilliant! But not as heroic like you describe it. It was a bit more then Schumacher pulling them out of a slump. It was Philip Morris setting up the next decade of domination after they had with McLaren. They brought in the best team they could think of with an unlimited budget of which Schumacher was a part of, the way Philip Morris likes to do stuff. Go full in or go home. They even approached Prost to take the second Ferrari in ‘96.

This move was as much a no brainer then “hey we’ve sold McLaren and investing 1500 engineers to our own team with all the good staff we got back, wanna join?”

Like Hamilton never left Mercedes, Schumacher never left Brawn

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Re: Silly Season 2018/2019

Post by GPR -A » Sun Jul 21, 2019 3:31 pm

Jolle wrote:
Sun Jul 21, 2019 2:41 pm

I think your glasses are a bit tainted.
What's wrong with most of you that you can't handle any argument without being personal?
Jolle wrote:
Sun Jul 21, 2019 2:41 pm
And for the move to Ferrari, yes, brilliant! But not as heroic like you describe it.
Free society. You can have your opinion and half the world might not buy that, vice-versa.
Jolle wrote:
Sun Jul 21, 2019 2:41 pm
It was a bit more then Schumacher pulling them out of a slump. It was Philip Morris setting up the next decade of domination after they had with McLaren. They brought in the best team they could think of with an unlimited budget of which Schumacher was a part of, the way Philip Morris likes to do stuff. Go full in or go home. They even approached Prost to take the second Ferrari in ‘96.
Philip Morris is still part of Ferrari and still is pouring crazy money. What's the result?
Jolle wrote:
Sun Jul 21, 2019 2:41 pm
This move was as much a no brainer then “hey we’ve sold McLaren and investing 1500 engineers to our own team with all the good staff we got back, wanna join?”

Like Hamilton never left Mercedes, Schumacher never left Brawn
Schumacher never left Brawn. True that and created the foundation that is allowing Lewis to build his greatness.

https://www.gptoday.net/en/news/f1/2209 ... es-success
Ross Brawn has credit Michael Schumacher with helping Mercedes lay the foundations of its recent success.

Zarathustra
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Re: Silly Season 2018/2019

Post by Zarathustra » Sun Jul 21, 2019 3:51 pm

GPR -A wrote:
Sun Jul 21, 2019 2:01 pm
It's easy to jump into a winning car and win, but it takes special ability to do something as special as what Michael did with Ferrari. History will always remember Ferrari as synonymous with Michael. That is greatness.
I agree with you 100%.

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Re: Silly Season 2018/2019

Post by Jolle » Sun Jul 21, 2019 4:12 pm

GPR -A wrote:
Sun Jul 21, 2019 3:31 pm
Jolle wrote:
Sun Jul 21, 2019 2:41 pm

I think your glasses are a bit tainted.
What's wrong with most of you that you can't handle any argument without being personal?
Jolle wrote:
Sun Jul 21, 2019 2:41 pm
And for the move to Ferrari, yes, brilliant! But not as heroic like you describe it.
Free society. You can have your opinion and half the world might not buy that, vice-versa.
Jolle wrote:
Sun Jul 21, 2019 2:41 pm
It was a bit more then Schumacher pulling them out of a slump. It was Philip Morris setting up the next decade of domination after they had with McLaren. They brought in the best team they could think of with an unlimited budget of which Schumacher was a part of, the way Philip Morris likes to do stuff. Go full in or go home. They even approached Prost to take the second Ferrari in ‘96.
Philip Morris is still part of Ferrari and still is pouring crazy money. What's the result?
Jolle wrote:
Sun Jul 21, 2019 2:41 pm
This move was as much a no brainer then “hey we’ve sold McLaren and investing 1500 engineers to our own team with all the good staff we got back, wanna join?”

Like Hamilton never left Mercedes, Schumacher never left Brawn
Schumacher never left Brawn. True that and created the foundation that is allowing Lewis to build his greatness.

https://www.gptoday.net/en/news/f1/2209 ... es-success
Ross Brawn has credit Michael Schumacher with helping Mercedes lay the foundations of its recent success.
Of course both Schumacher and Brawn were crucial in the foundation of Mercedes today, Brawn's numbers speak for themselves. Roughly three people have won titles for the past decades (or were instrumental to them): Newey, Briattore and Brawn, all three in different roles.

For why Philip Morris isn't working anymore? probably the same reason it stopped working in '92. Rule changes (with having the wrong tire), key members of the team that left (Brawn, Todt and Byrne to some degree) and the replacements never impressed enough. Plus Mercedes took on the challenge with a slightly different approach with an equal or even greater bankroll.

Since Todt and Brawn leaving Ferrari they never looked stable. You may disagree but that all three team principles after Brawn/Todt didn't leave on their own free will says enough for me. The Ferrari/Philip Morris contract is up for renewal at the end of 2020 and could possibly turn a lot on it's head. Philip Morris is quite rigid in how they approach racing and far from loyal. If you compare '96 with Ferrari to '80 with Project Four (or even Agostini '81 and Roberts '91), they are mirror images. They could easily pick up everything, pick up Honda, buy/invest in a team like Williams, get the champion that is available and win/dominate in 2025.