Silly Season 2018/2019

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GPR -A
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Re: Silly Season 2018/2019

Post by GPR -A » Sun Jul 21, 2019 4:29 pm

Jolle wrote:
Sun Jul 21, 2019 4:12 pm
For why Philip Morris isn't working anymore? probably the same reason it stopped working in '92. Rule changes (with having the wrong tire), key members of the team that left (Brawn, Todt and Byrne to some degree) and the replacements never impressed enough. Plus Mercedes took on the challenge with a slightly different approach with an equal or even greater bankroll.

Since Todt and Brawn leaving Ferrari they never looked stable. You may disagree but that all three team principles after Brawn/Todt didn't leave on their own free will says enough for me. The Ferrari/Philip Morris contract is up for renewal at the end of 2020 and could possibly turn a lot on it's head. Philip Morris is quite rigid in how they approach racing and far from loyal. If you compare '96 with Ferrari to '80 with Project Four (or even Agostini '81 and Roberts '91), they are mirror images. They could easily pick up everything, pick up Honda, buy/invest in a team like Williams, get the champion that is available and win/dominate in 2025.
In Summary, Money doesn't buy success. Toyota used to have highest budget, yet could barely produce success. It's always the right people who bring success. Brawn is one of those genius people who always has had a clear vision for achieving success in differing circumstances and changing times. He always said, "Michael is the best driver and a reference for other drivers". One can't get a better evidence of greatness when it comes from a genius himself. Definitely not from arm chair experts on public forums, filled with hatred for one driver, looking at opportunities to pull that driver down and the only reason they like other drivers is just for that exact hate.

Brawn was instrumental in pulling Michael to Benetton and even with smaller budget, the trio of Brawn, Michael and Byrne won 2 championships. It was Michael who was instrumental in bringing both of them to Ferrari. You should listen to an interview with Byrne who talks about how messy the whole Ferrari organization was and how much sanity they needed to bring. Philip Morris was just a bank account. They never had any vision.


Just_a_fan
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Re: Silly Season 2018/2019

Post by Just_a_fan » Sun Jul 21, 2019 7:05 pm

GPR -A wrote:
Sun Jul 21, 2019 4:29 pm
He always said, "Michael is the best driver and a reference for other drivers". One can't get a better evidence of greatness when it comes from a genius himself. Definitely not from arm chair experts on public forums, filled with hatred for one driver, looking at opportunities to pull that driver down and the only reason they like other drivers is just for that exact hate.
Michael was a great driver, no doubt. But he was also a cheat and that is what some don't like. Sorry, but that's just a fact.
Turbo says "Dumpster sounds so much more classy. It's the diamond of the cesspools." oh, and "The Dutch fans are drunk. Maybe"

Manoah2u
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Re: Silly Season 2018/2019

Post by Manoah2u » Sun Jul 21, 2019 7:10 pm

On another note, Raikkonen back to Ferrari if Vettel steps out / get's the boot.
Dumpster sounds so much more classy. It's the diamond of the cesspools.

marmer
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Re: Silly Season 2018/2019

Post by marmer » Sun Jul 21, 2019 7:20 pm

Manoah2u wrote:
Sun Jul 21, 2019 7:10 pm
On another note, Raikkonen back to Ferrari if Vettel steps out / get's the boot.
Haha that would be great especially if the car suited Kimi and he just walks away with the championship next year.



On a serious note it's alarming that Kimi is there last champion

Zarathustra
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Re: Silly Season 2018/2019

Post by Zarathustra » Sun Jul 21, 2019 8:31 pm

Just_a_fan wrote:
Sun Jul 21, 2019 7:05 pm
GPR -A wrote:
Sun Jul 21, 2019 4:29 pm
He always said, "Michael is the best driver and a reference for other drivers". One can't get a better evidence of greatness when it comes from a genius himself. Definitely not from arm chair experts on public forums, filled with hatred for one driver, looking at opportunities to pull that driver down and the only reason they like other drivers is just for that exact hate.
Michael was a great driver, no doubt. But he was also a cheat and that is what some don't like. Sorry, but that's just a fact.
It only confirms that fans do remember more than just the number of wins or titles.

Zarathustra
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Re: Silly Season 2018/2019

Post by Zarathustra » Sun Jul 21, 2019 8:32 pm

marmer wrote:
Sun Jul 21, 2019 7:20 pm
Manoah2u wrote:
Sun Jul 21, 2019 7:10 pm
On another note, Raikkonen back to Ferrari if Vettel steps out / get's the boot.
Haha that would be great especially if the car suited Kimi and he just walks away with the championship next year.



On a serious note it's alarming that Kimi is there last champion
If this is true, I guess Alonso is also a ‘real’ option as well..?

sAx
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Re: Silly Season 2018/2019

Post by sAx » Sun Jul 21, 2019 10:17 pm

Chuckjr wrote:
Sun Jul 21, 2019 10:08 am
Phil wrote:
Sat Jul 20, 2019 11:41 am
That stuff is old school. Teams now have hundreds if not thousand of employees that are all part of the success of the team. In the end, once he retires, all that will ever matter is how many championships he will have. No one will care how he got them or how they were won, just as little as people will remember Hamilton's great drives like last year in Monza or Hockenheim. Over time, all that will stay with people is the number of championships he won. Depending on how one's performance goes, some might not even remember that and focus on the performance of his last races. Just look at Vettel - a 4 time world champion. Now everyone seems to talk of is how many mistakes he made in races he should have won.
Nah. People will remember the distinct advantage Hamilton had in his career (even starting as a rookie in a championship capable car) just like people remember Schumi winning in a Ferrari that should not have been winning early in his Ferrari career, or later Fred beating Schumi in a Renault after the Ferrari became completely dominant. Fred basically put Mike into early retirement. People remember that stuff. It’s not as cut and dry as you’d like it to be because everyone knows what’s really been going on for a while now. The Championships Merc are acquiring are more coronations than championships. You know it. I know it. Everybody knows it. Great for them. Awesome job. But racing history and what really went down doesn’t just die off like you think. Championship count is not all people remember, and how a driver acquired them does matter and is remembered.

Maybe we should add Webber to the let's remember list...a driver who through technical sporting changes and Jaguar/Red-Bull longevity, inherited a championship capable/winning car and was unable to acquire at least one of them over its 4yr reign.
Integrity, Trust, Respect.

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Capharol
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Re: Silly Season 2018/2019

Post by Capharol » Sun Jul 21, 2019 10:47 pm

Just_a_fan wrote:
Sun Jul 21, 2019 7:05 pm
GPR -A wrote:
Sun Jul 21, 2019 4:29 pm
He always said, "Michael is the best driver and a reference for other drivers". One can't get a better evidence of greatness when it comes from a genius himself. Definitely not from arm chair experts on public forums, filled with hatred for one driver, looking at opportunities to pull that driver down and the only reason they like other drivers is just for that exact hate.
Michael was a great driver, no doubt. But he was also a cheat and that is what some don't like. Sorry, but that's just a fact.
show prove....
Strive for continuous improvement, instead of perfection.

Just_a_fan
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Re: Silly Season 2018/2019

Post by Just_a_fan » Sun Jul 21, 2019 11:21 pm

Capharol wrote:
Sun Jul 21, 2019 10:47 pm
Just_a_fan wrote:
Sun Jul 21, 2019 7:05 pm

Michael was a great driver, no doubt. But he was also a cheat and that is what some don't like. Sorry, but that's just a fact.
show prove....
1. Deliberately drove in to Hill having being forced in to an error - got his first title.
2. Deliberately drove in to Villeneuve in an attempt to secure title again.
3. Deliberately parked his car at Monaco to prevent others from getting pole.

Then there are the issues with his car "probably" having TC when it was banned. "Honest, it's switched off" said the team principal that later had one his driver's crash on purpose so his other driver could win a race. Schumacher may or may not have known about TC. If it was engaged on his car, then he certainly knew about it.

Which is all annoying because he was good enough not to do these things.
Turbo says "Dumpster sounds so much more classy. It's the diamond of the cesspools." oh, and "The Dutch fans are drunk. Maybe"

Manoah2u
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Re: Silly Season 2018/2019

Post by Manoah2u » Mon Jul 22, 2019 2:13 am

Zarathustra wrote:
Sun Jul 21, 2019 8:32 pm
marmer wrote:
Sun Jul 21, 2019 7:20 pm
Manoah2u wrote:
Sun Jul 21, 2019 7:10 pm
On another note, Raikkonen back to Ferrari if Vettel steps out / get's the boot.
Haha that would be great especially if the car suited Kimi and he just walks away with the championship next year.



On a serious note it's alarming that Kimi is there last champion
If this is true, I guess Alonso is also a ‘real’ option as well..?
Alonso actually claimed he isn't interested in F1 for 2020, so in all honesty, no.
To be very honest, i think Kimi would be a better pair for Leclerc by now than Vettel.

Oddly enough, a few seasons ago, everybody - including me - thought Kimi's days were
over, as he was outpaced by Vettel and made some questionable mistakes.
That seems completely turned around somehow.
And looking at how Kimi performs with Alfa, i'm curious how he'd hold up against LeClerc.
Dumpster sounds so much more classy. It's the diamond of the cesspools.

ringo
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Re: Silly Season 2018/2019

Post by ringo » Mon Jul 22, 2019 2:43 am

Manoah2u wrote:
Sun Jul 21, 2019 7:10 pm
On another note, Raikkonen back to Ferrari if Vettel steps out / get's the boot.
I think this is very likely to happen.

I don't see Alonso coming back. He is too poisonous and will mess up Leclerc's career.

Kimi to ferrari when Leclerc beats Vettel this year. Or Hulkenberg as Leclerc's experienced wing man.
For Sure!!

GPR -A
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Re: Silly Season 2018/2019

Post by GPR -A » Mon Jul 22, 2019 3:24 am

Just_a_fan wrote:
Sun Jul 21, 2019 11:21 pm
Capharol wrote:
Sun Jul 21, 2019 10:47 pm
Just_a_fan wrote:
Sun Jul 21, 2019 7:05 pm

Michael was a great driver, no doubt. But he was also a cheat and that is what some don't like. Sorry, but that's just a fact.
show prove....
1. Deliberately drove in to Hill having being forced in to an error - got his first title.
2. Deliberately drove in to Villeneuve in an attempt to secure title again.
3. Deliberately parked his car at Monaco to prevent others from getting pole.

Then there are the issues with his car "probably" having TC when it was banned. "Honest, it's switched off" said the team principal that later had one his driver's crash on purpose so his other driver could win a race. Schumacher may or may not have known about TC. If it was engaged on his car, then he certainly knew about it.

Which is all annoying because he was good enough not to do these things.
"Deliberately" is an accusation, not a fact, which some are happy to pick as it favors their point of view. It's the same with "TC" thing, like that of flexible front wing, floor of Red Bulls. Because Benetton was no Ferrari, Williams or McLaren and had no clout with FIA, the accusations were blown out of proportions. More so, because Senna accused them.

Just_a_fan
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Joined: Sun Jan 31, 2010 7:37 pm

Re: Silly Season 2018/2019

Post by Just_a_fan » Mon Jul 22, 2019 8:27 am

GPR-A, you should talk to people who were in the paddock at the time. Everyone in the paddock knew what they were up to, the software was found and then the FIA accepted Briatore's word that it was just there for testing and they didn't use it at races.

As for Schumacher's other actions - they were seen by millions. Just like Vettel's drive in to the side of Hamilton in Baku. There is no doubt they happened.

As I said, it's a shame these things happened because they tarnish the legacy slightly.
Turbo says "Dumpster sounds so much more classy. It's the diamond of the cesspools." oh, and "The Dutch fans are drunk. Maybe"

DChemTech
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Re: Silly Season 2018/2019

Post by DChemTech » Mon Jul 22, 2019 8:39 am

GPR -A wrote:
Sun Jul 21, 2019 4:29 pm
Jolle wrote:
Sun Jul 21, 2019 4:12 pm
For why Philip Morris isn't working anymore? probably the same reason it stopped working in '92. Rule changes (with having the wrong tire), key members of the team that left (Brawn, Todt and Byrne to some degree) and the replacements never impressed enough. Plus Mercedes took on the challenge with a slightly different approach with an equal or even greater bankroll.

Since Todt and Brawn leaving Ferrari they never looked stable. You may disagree but that all three team principles after Brawn/Todt didn't leave on their own free will says enough for me. The Ferrari/Philip Morris contract is up for renewal at the end of 2020 and could possibly turn a lot on it's head. Philip Morris is quite rigid in how they approach racing and far from loyal. If you compare '96 with Ferrari to '80 with Project Four (or even Agostini '81 and Roberts '91), they are mirror images. They could easily pick up everything, pick up Honda, buy/invest in a team like Williams, get the champion that is available and win/dominate in 2025.
In Summary, Money doesn't buy success. Toyota used to have highest budget, yet could barely produce success. It's always the right people who bring success. Brawn is one of those genius people who always has had a clear vision for achieving success in differing circumstances and changing times. He always said, "Michael is the best driver and a reference for other drivers". One can't get a better evidence of greatness when it comes from a genius himself. Definitely not from arm chair experts on public forums, filled with hatred for one driver, looking at opportunities to pull that driver down and the only reason they like other drivers is just for that exact hate.

Brawn was instrumental in pulling Michael to Benetton and even with smaller budget, the trio of Brawn, Michael and Byrne won 2 championships. It was Michael who was instrumental in bringing both of them to Ferrari. You should listen to an interview with Byrne who talks about how messy the whole Ferrari organization was and how much sanity they needed to bring. Philip Morris was just a bank account. They never had any vision.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m16RZA8Fzvs
Yes, money does buy success:
https://f1metrics.wordpress.com/2015/05 ... formula-1/
The numbers are from 2015 so they go up to the 2014 season, but the correlation is extremely clear.
The more money you pump in, the larger your chances of success are. There are outliers, sure, but those do not disrupt the trend.

Image

Capharol
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Re: Silly Season 2018/2019

Post by Capharol » Mon Jul 22, 2019 8:56 am

GPR -A wrote:
Mon Jul 22, 2019 3:24 am
Just_a_fan wrote:
Sun Jul 21, 2019 11:21 pm
Capharol wrote:
Sun Jul 21, 2019 10:47 pm


show prove....
1. Deliberately drove in to Hill having being forced in to an error - got his first title.
2. Deliberately drove in to Villeneuve in an attempt to secure title again.
3. Deliberately parked his car at Monaco to prevent others from getting pole.

Then there are the issues with his car "probably" having TC when it was banned. "Honest, it's switched off" said the team principal that later had one his driver's crash on purpose so his other driver could win a race. Schumacher may or may not have known about TC. If it was engaged on his car, then he certainly knew about it.

Which is all annoying because he was good enough not to do these things.
"Deliberately" is an accusation, not a fact, which some are happy to pick as it favors their point of view. It's the same with "TC" thing, like that of flexible front wing, floor of Red Bulls. Because Benetton was no Ferrari, Williams or McLaren and had no clout with FIA, the accusations were blown out of proportions. More so, because Senna accused them.
1. & 2. Senna did it to Prost aswell, and Prost did it to Senna
3. thats is not cheating, thats called being clever, and believe me others would have done it aswell when they had the change to it.

but i see your dislike towards schumacher won't change your opinion about it and you don't care what others say or listen to it....

oh and as GPR-A already said ..... those are assumptions and no hard prove.... so provide hard prove, and i mean like Schumacher admitting to it.... otherwise this is a silly discussion and, by the way, has nothing to do with the topic-title
Strive for continuous improvement, instead of perfection.