General Honda F1 Topic

Post here all non technical related topics about Formula One. This includes race results, discussions, testing analysis etc. TV coverage and other personal questions should be in Off topic chat.
loner
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Re: General Honda F1 Topic

Post by loner » Tue Oct 01, 2019 1:29 pm

loner wrote:
Tue Oct 01, 2019 12:16 pm
Wouter wrote:
Mon Sep 30, 2019 9:00 pm
Through a Skype conversation in the tv programme Peptalk on Ziggo Sport father Jos looks back on the performance of his son in Russia, and he looks ahead to the remaining races of the season.

It should not take too long before he is going to deliver what we are all hoping for and he can challenge for the world title. “No, that is what we think too”, says the father of Aston Martin Red Bull Racing driver who today celebrated his twenty-second birthday: “We should have been closer, but that is more difficult than we thought. It is very frustrating. In the last races before the summer break it went really well, but after the summer break we did not progress while the other teams did. Max cannot change that, we depend on the team, the car is a bit behind, the engine is a bit behind, more work has to be done on this combination if we want to challenge for the world title next year.”

Verstappen senior continues: “We are very concerned if there will be any improvement in the short term, we will talk to the team to see what can be done. We depend on the equipment we get and at the moment it is not good enough.”

Asked if it is discouraging now and then, Jos answers: “Seeing Max’ performance, put him in a good car and he will challenge for the world championship. We are now working with Red Bull for a couple of years, but it still does not look that we will be able to challenge for the world title next year. Looking at the last couple of races it seems that we will be half a second short in Japan. Of course we will try everything to close the gap, but half a second you cannot catch up in two weeks’ time. The expectation was to close the gap to the competition, but at the moment it does not look like it. We have to work hard to close the gap, otherwise next year will be lost too.:(
as things stands not even the Mercs will challenge Ferrari next year , Jos is right its frustrating however from what i collect of infos Ferrari explored the grey area in the regulations and can have about 50 hp more in certain moments during qualifying and race its kinda outsmarting the rivals, how long it will continue like that and how long it will take the other 3 manufacturers to discover this secret is yet to be seen, if it wasn't for the SC Mercs wouldn't win in Sochi.
perhaps Jos need to be very careful before taking any big decisions concerning of his son.
https://www.racefans.net/2019/10/01/fer ... ain-wolff/
“It’s certainly an outlier because normally with maturing regulations to find these big steps is certainly unusual,” said Wolff.

“So as it stands it has become an engine formula, yes. We all need to understand how we can increase our engine performance and at the same time find the right power-to-drag ratio and understand the tyres, it’s a combination of these.”

He said the team will scrutinise their power unit closely to work out how to close the gap to Ferrari. “I think we need to look at all areas of the engine, if there’s some innovation that we should have spotted.

“Certainly in terms of the combustion in the engine, thermal efficiency gains that we can achieve from year to year, we’re speaking about not several percentages, we’re speaking of something below a per cent that is something that you can physically extract, year on year development. And with good mature regulations like we have now probably even less.

“So you need to be clever and innovative on all the other bits in the engine whilst daring a hundred percent of the regulations.”

However Wolff does not believe the team needs to change the philosophy behind its downforce-orientated car design for the 2020 F1 season. “It’s something we are looking at but you need to put it into perspective between a draggy a car and a not-draggy car,” he said.

“Probably the two extremes that you see on-track on the whole grid you would find two-tenths difference. This is what you can what you can extract in putting lots of bits of the car versus having a streamlined car. So it has not such a big specific effect – it has an effect but it’s not the main effect.”
para bellum.

loner
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Re: General Honda F1 Topic

Post by loner » Tue Oct 01, 2019 1:53 pm

A contact suggests the secret to Ferrari’s sudden performance turnaround – particularly on the engine side – is down to a cunning trick. He believes Ferrari is running a pressurised oil-to-air intercooler, enabling oil mist to ‘leak’ into the combustion chamber during forced induction.

Doing this would allow Ferrari to recreate the ‘oil-burn’ which the FIA has tried to stamp out with successive rules tweaks and strict monitoring of engine oil consumption. “Intercooler oil is not monitored,” he winks.

Whether he’s on the money is another question, and the suggestion may be ‘planted’, but it surely is worth reflecting upon given Ferrari’s dramatic upturn in performance since the summer break and factory shutdown. The latter, crucially, does not (yet) apply to engine suppliers.

The subsequent race provides another demonstration of Ferrari power as the two SF90s sweep into the lead at the start. Unfortunately for the team the reliability of the Ferrari 064 falls short, as it did in Bahrain, and victory eludes them.
https://www.racefans.net/2019/09/30/pad ... ay-four-2/
para bellum.

Jambier
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Re: General Honda F1 Topic

Post by Jambier » Tue Oct 01, 2019 2:19 pm

Ferrari runs a low downforce car
Engine was performing well since one year
Mercedes had medium tyres at Sotchi start

There is nothing new in Ferrari engine performance.
And I don't see their customer car being particulary fast.

I mean yes, the Ferrari engine is the strongest, and yes the works car engine have a special fuel, but straight line speed is in big part due to their aero

Then for Honda, the concern is to do a 3 engine season. They must do and try one, next year would be great, to see if they don't have to turn power down too much, and assess what they'll be able to do in 2021 to fight for the title!

RonDennis
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Re: General Honda F1 Topic

Post by RonDennis » Tue Oct 01, 2019 3:20 pm

The Ferrari engine has been strong from day one this year. Ferrari's only problem was their car and they figured it out. So they now have a good chassis with a superb engine.

etusch
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Re: General Honda F1 Topic

Post by etusch » Tue Oct 01, 2019 4:11 pm

Jambier wrote:
Tue Oct 01, 2019 2:19 pm
Ferrari runs a low downforce car
Engine was performing well since one year
Mercedes had medium tyres at Sotchi start

There is nothing new in Ferrari engine performance.
And I don't see their customer car being particulary fast.

I mean yes, the Ferrari engine is the strongest, and yes the works car engine have a special fuel, but straight line speed is in big part due to their aero

Then for Honda, the concern is to do a 3 engine season. They must do and try one, next year would be great, to see if they don't have to turn power down too much, and assess what they'll be able to do in 2021 to fight for the title!
Turn down? This is not power comes from shorter life. They can at least Mercedes level or better next year if Mercedes can not leap level of ferrari. I think they will achieve finishing with 3 pu but it is ok finishing with 4

Marti_EF3
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Re: General Honda F1 Topic

Post by Marti_EF3 » Tue Oct 01, 2019 4:42 pm

Next year will be extra components allowed due to an extended race calendar?? I think I read something about it

Capharol
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Re: General Honda F1 Topic

Post by Capharol » Tue Oct 01, 2019 4:50 pm

Marti_EF3 wrote:
Tue Oct 01, 2019 4:42 pm
Next year will be extra components allowed due to an extended race calendar?? I think I read something about it
Formula 1 teams have agreed to increase the allowed allocation of MGU-K engine elements for the 2020 season.

With the addition of a 22nd race on the 2020 calendar, F1 is set for its longest-ever campaign next year, and in a bid to cope with the demands of an extended season, teams have pushed for more leeway with power unit components.

Teams will now be able to run a third MGU-K element, the same as other engine parts including the MGU-H and turbo components.
https://www.crash.net/f1/news/928249/1/ ... 0-22-races
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loner
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Re: General Honda F1 Topic

Post by loner » Tue Oct 01, 2019 5:19 pm

Jambier , RonDennis of course they are benefiting from a grey area in the PU regulation and their PU advantage after the summer break is certainly unusual just like Toto said but i for one am actually like it and hope FIA won't restrict it, its an open invitation to invent and think out side the box so its an engineers playground and i like it.
fortune favor those who dare.
para bellum.

Marti_EF3
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Re: General Honda F1 Topic

Post by Marti_EF3 » Tue Oct 01, 2019 6:09 pm

Capharol wrote:
Tue Oct 01, 2019 4:50 pm
Marti_EF3 wrote:
Tue Oct 01, 2019 4:42 pm
Next year will be extra components allowed due to an extended race calendar?? I think I read something about it
Formula 1 teams have agreed to increase the allowed allocation of MGU-K engine elements for the 2020 season.

With the addition of a 22nd race on the 2020 calendar, F1 is set for its longest-ever campaign next year, and in a bid to cope with the demands of an extended season, teams have pushed for more leeway with power unit components.

Teams will now be able to run a third MGU-K element, the same as other engine parts including the MGU-H and turbo components.
https://www.crash.net/f1/news/928249/1/ ... 0-22-races
Only MGU-K then... Thanks!

IvailoStefanovBG
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Re: General Honda F1 Topic

Post by IvailoStefanovBG » Tue Oct 01, 2019 7:20 pm

Jambier wrote:
Tue Oct 01, 2019 2:19 pm
Ferrari runs a low downforce car
Engine was performing well since one year
Mercedes had medium tyres at Sotchi start

There is nothing new in Ferrari engine performance.
And I don't see their customer car being particulary fast.

I mean yes, the Ferrari engine is the strongest, and yes the works car engine have a special fuel, but straight line speed is in big part due to their aero

Then for Honda, the concern is to do a 3 engine season. They must do and try one, next year would be great, to see if they don't have to turn power down too much, and assess what they'll be able to do in 2021 to fight for the title!
Top speed is not Ferrari's strongest side but the acceleration or the time they reach top speed..I wiil put these 3 or 4 km difference in top speed to their low drag concept, but how can you explain the acceleration? All the teams use MGUK combined with ICE in acceleration stage so Ferrari suddenly exceeds with alot of power all other teams in ICE. This means that they suddenly found around 5% in combustion efficiency if stated by Marko 54 HP are true?

TNTHead
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Re: General Honda F1 Topic

Post by TNTHead » Tue Oct 01, 2019 8:08 pm

To increase power you actually have a few options as i understand it correctly:
1) increase efficiency of the ICE
2) increase efficiency of MGU-H
3) maximise fuel energy content
4) add additional fuel somehow
5) find some loophole in energy regeneration/optimise mappings and software

Since this is development war/competition all manufacturers try their best maximise 1) to 3). 4) and 5) is already in shady area.
Toto says that the ICE cannot be the differentiator, since it's almost at maximum achievable efficiency, then 1) is not plausible
I dont know how the efficiencies are of 2) between the manufacturers, but that seems also not plausible. After 5 years of development we can assume that at these areas quite a high level convergence has occurred. So that leaves fuel and the more shady options.
I am very curious what the differentiator might be. What we now have are only rumours.

henry
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Re: General Honda F1 Topic

Post by henry » Tue Oct 01, 2019 10:14 pm

TNTHead wrote:
Tue Oct 01, 2019 8:08 pm
To increase power you actually have a few options as i understand it correctly:
1) increase efficiency of the ICE
2) increase efficiency of MGU-H
3) maximise fuel energy content
4) add additional fuel somehow
5) find some loophole in energy regeneration/optimise mappings and software

Since this is development war/competition all manufacturers try their best maximise 1) to 3). 4) and 5) is already in shady area.
Toto says that the ICE cannot be the differentiator, since it's almost at maximum achievable efficiency, then 1) is not plausible
I dont know how the efficiencies are of 2) between the manufacturers, but that seems also not plausible. After 5 years of development we can assume that at these areas quite a high level convergence has occurred. So that leaves fuel and the more shady options.
I am very curious what the differentiator might be. What we now have are only rumours.
Nice list of possibilities.

Increased MGU-H output increases the length of time power can be applied and not the absolute power value.
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Big Tea
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Re: General Honda F1 Topic

Post by Big Tea » Tue Oct 01, 2019 10:26 pm

henry wrote:
Tue Oct 01, 2019 10:14 pm
TNTHead wrote:
Tue Oct 01, 2019 8:08 pm
To increase power you actually have a few options as i understand it correctly:
1) increase efficiency of the ICE
2) increase efficiency of MGU-H
3) maximise fuel energy content
4) add additional fuel somehow
5) find some loophole in energy regeneration/optimise mappings and software

Since this is development war/competition all manufacturers try their best maximise 1) to 3). 4) and 5) is already in shady area.
Toto says that the ICE cannot be the differentiator, since it's almost at maximum achievable efficiency, then 1) is not plausible
I dont know how the efficiencies are of 2) between the manufacturers, but that seems also not plausible. After 5 years of development we can assume that at these areas quite a high level convergence has occurred. So that leaves fuel and the more shady options.
I am very curious what the differentiator might be. What we now have are only rumours.
Nice list of possibilities.

Increased MGU-H output increases the length of time power can be applied and not the absolute power value.
Is it worth considering minimizing losses, or will that be minimal?
One test is worth a thousand expert opinions

ispano6
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Re: General Honda F1 Topic

Post by ispano6 » Tue Oct 01, 2019 10:29 pm

TNTHead wrote:
Tue Oct 01, 2019 8:08 pm
To increase power you actually have a few options as i understand it correctly:
1) increase efficiency of the ICE
2) increase efficiency of MGU-H
3) maximise fuel energy content
4) add additional fuel somehow
5) find some loophole in energy regeneration/optimise mappings and software

Since this is development war/competition all manufacturers try their best maximise 1) to 3). 4) and 5) is already in shady area.
Toto says that the ICE cannot be the differentiator, since it's almost at maximum achievable efficiency, then 1) is not plausible
I dont know how the efficiencies are of 2) between the manufacturers, but that seems also not plausible. After 5 years of development we can assume that at these areas quite a high level convergence has occurred. So that leaves fuel and the more shady options.
I am very curious what the differentiator might be. What we now have are only rumours.
Suppose it is outside of 1-5. Honda's limitation lies in the realm of gray areas of the regulations. Ferrari's performance is a result of venturing into those areas. All of Ferrari's failures are probably related. Perhaps the MGU-K is the source of the performance and pain still.

loner
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Re: General Honda F1 Topic

Post by loner » Sun Oct 06, 2019 10:42 am

loner wrote:
Tue Sep 03, 2019 12:39 pm
until it rains cats and dogs in Suzuka :lol:
nailed it :mrgreen:
para bellum.