Renault ECUs impounded

Post here all non technical related topics about Formula One. This includes race results, discussions, testing analysis etc. TV coverage and other personal questions should be in Off topic chat.
bill shoe
bill shoe
250
Joined: Wed Nov 19, 2008 7:18 am
Location: Dallas, Texas, USA

Re: Renault ECUs impounded

Post

oops, never mind.

thestig84
thestig84
5
Joined: Thu Nov 19, 2009 12:09 pm

Re: Renault ECUs impounded

Post

bigblue wrote:
Mon Oct 14, 2019 8:21 pm
Maybe the bias changed between every corner. Not sure a driver would be fiddling around that much, so sort of a driver brake aid ? Just speculating.
Anyway, how did Racing Point figure this out ? Examination of onboard images ?
I think the helmet cam from winter testing is pretty suspicious
Top left of dash. Brake Bias looks like it changes with no movement of hands also mid corner in one instance !?!
What do you think?
Daniel Ricciardo's First Lap in a Renault - Visor Cam | F1 Testing 2019 https://youtu.be/PcL7I1NSQDs via
@YouTube

rogazilla
rogazilla
17
Joined: Thu Oct 05, 2017 3:35 pm

Re: Renault ECUs impounded

Post

What if this is ECU adjusting brake regen which in term the bias is adjusted?

r101
r101
2
Joined: Tue Mar 31, 2015 12:44 pm

Re: Renault ECUs impounded

Post

rogazilla wrote:
Tue Oct 15, 2019 5:36 pm
What if this is ECU adjusting brake regen which in term the bias is adjusted?
From What I have read, that would be legal. Rear braking can be ECU controlled, because of the hybrid part.

User avatar
Andres125sx
343
Joined: Tue Aug 13, 2013 9:15 am
Location: Madrid, Spain

Re: Renault ECUs impounded

Post

Maybe it was not an automatic change from one corner to the next (what is done by drivers easily), but an automatic adjustment on each braking. I mean, when they hit the brakes the balance is set as the driver adjusted it, and as the speed decreases balance is automatically adjusted because optimal balance is different at 250km/h than it is at the end of the braking when entering the corner at 140km/h. Drivers can´t change it during a braking

User avatar
henry
263
Joined: Mon Feb 23, 2004 7:49 pm
Location: England

Re: Renault ECUs impounded

Post

Andres125sx wrote:
Wed Oct 16, 2019 7:02 am
Maybe it was not an automatic change from one corner to the next (what is done by drivers easily), but an automatic adjustment on each braking. I mean, when they hit the brakes the balance is set as the driver adjusted it, and as the speed decreases balance is automatically adjusted because optimal balance is different at 250km/h than it is at the end of the braking when entering the corner at 140km/h. Drivers can´t change it during a braking
I think that is what the “brake migration” setting, seen on all steering wheels, does. It progressively reduces front bias as the speed, and hence load transfer, drops. If they didn’t do that the MGU-K harvest would not be possible below about 180kph.
Fortune favours the prepared; she has no favourites and takes no sides.
Truth is confirmed by inspection and delay; falsehood by haste and uncertainty : Tacitus

sosic2121
sosic2121
18
Joined: Wed Jun 08, 2016 11:14 am

Re: Renault ECUs impounded

Post

henry wrote:
Wed Oct 16, 2019 8:53 am
Andres125sx wrote:
Wed Oct 16, 2019 7:02 am
Maybe it was not an automatic change from one corner to the next (what is done by drivers easily), but an automatic adjustment on each braking. I mean, when they hit the brakes the balance is set as the driver adjusted it, and as the speed decreases balance is automatically adjusted because optimal balance is different at 250km/h than it is at the end of the braking when entering the corner at 140km/h. Drivers can´t change it during a braking
I think that is what the “brake migration” setting, seen on all steering wheels, does. It progressively reduces front bias as the speed, and hence load transfer, drops. If they didn’t do that the MGU-K harvest would not be possible below about 180kph.
henry wrote:
Wed Oct 16, 2019 8:53 am
Andres125sx wrote:
Wed Oct 16, 2019 7:02 am
Maybe it was not an automatic change from one corner to the next (what is done by drivers easily), but an automatic adjustment on each braking. I mean, when they hit the brakes the balance is set as the driver adjusted it, and as the speed decreases balance is automatically adjusted because optimal balance is different at 250km/h than it is at the end of the braking when entering the corner at 140km/h. Drivers can´t change it during a braking
I think that is what the “brake migration” setting, seen on all steering wheels, does. It progressively reduces front bias as the speed, and hence load transfer, drops. If they didn’t do that the MGU-K harvest would not be possible below about 180kph.
Please explain more.
Do you believe that brake balance adjusts only front and rear brakes? I believe they adjust front brakes vs rear brakes+mguk,
so I don't understand why would break balance impact harvesting.

Also I believe that at high speed it's beneficial to have almost 50:50 brake balance, and as car slowes down to have more and more braking power (%, not absolute) on front axle.

So, IMO Renault drivers would still choose balance they wanted depending on the speed they start breaking with, and then car would optimize it self rest of the way.
If anyone has some video or evidence of this can you please share.

Polite
Polite
18
Joined: Tue Oct 30, 2018 9:36 am

Re: Renault ECUs impounded

Post

any news?

Today was the day...

User avatar
henry
263
Joined: Mon Feb 23, 2004 7:49 pm
Location: England

Re: Renault ECUs impounded

Post

sosic2121 wrote:
Wed Oct 16, 2019 2:19 pm
henry wrote:
Wed Oct 16, 2019 8:53 am
Andres125sx wrote:
Wed Oct 16, 2019 7:02 am
Maybe it was not an automatic change from one corner to the next (what is done by drivers easily), but an automatic adjustment on each braking. I mean, when they hit the brakes the balance is set as the driver adjusted it, and as the speed decreases balance is automatically adjusted because optimal balance is different at 250km/h than it is at the end of the braking when entering the corner at 140km/h. Drivers can´t change it during a braking
I think that is what the “brake migration” setting, seen on all steering wheels, does. It progressively reduces front bias as the speed, and hence load transfer, drops. If they didn’t do that the MGU-K harvest would not be possible below about 180kph.
henry wrote:
Wed Oct 16, 2019 8:53 am
Andres125sx wrote:
Wed Oct 16, 2019 7:02 am
Maybe it was not an automatic change from one corner to the next (what is done by drivers easily), but an automatic adjustment on each braking. I mean, when they hit the brakes the balance is set as the driver adjusted it, and as the speed decreases balance is automatically adjusted because optimal balance is different at 250km/h than it is at the end of the braking when entering the corner at 140km/h. Drivers can´t change it during a braking
I think that is what the “brake migration” setting, seen on all steering wheels, does. It progressively reduces front bias as the speed, and hence load transfer, drops. If they didn’t do that the MGU-K harvest would not be possible below about 180kph.
Please explain more.
Do you believe that brake balance adjusts only front and rear brakes? I believe they adjust front brakes vs rear brakes+mguk,
so I don't understand why would break balance impact harvesting.

Also I believe that at high speed it's beneficial to have almost 50:50 brake balance, and as car slowes down to have more and more braking power (%, not absolute) on front axle.

So, IMO Renault drivers would still choose balance they wanted depending on the speed they start breaking with, and then car would optimize it self rest of the way.
If anyone has some video or evidence of this can you please share.
I think the brake balance is as you say, the rear force is the combination of friction brakes and MGU-K.

The difference between high speed and low speed is the opposite of what you think. At high speed the most braking force is applied by the front brakes. As the speed decreases the proportion at the front reduces. This is because as the speed reduces the rate of deceleration reduces and so the load transfer decreases.

As the road speed decreases the braking force from the MGU-K increases. When the MGU-K power is 120kW there is a speed at which that force is too high for the rear tyres to cope with and the MGU-K harvest power has to be reduced as the road speed falls further. I was a little over enthusiastic saying 180kph, it’s rather lower. If they didn’t modify the brake bias during the stop, the speed at which the MGU-K can’t run at 120kW would be higher and they would harvest less energy.

Essentially this is the scenario you state. Choosing an initial balance and letting the ECU sort the change. I think they already do this.

There are several factors that would influence the initial choice and the way the balance changes during the stop. Perhaps Renault have automated these things.
Fortune favours the prepared; she has no favourites and takes no sides.
Truth is confirmed by inspection and delay; falsehood by haste and uncertainty : Tacitus

Tommy Cookers
Tommy Cookers
533
Joined: Fri Feb 17, 2012 3:55 pm

Re: Renault ECUs impounded

Post

henry wrote:
Wed Oct 16, 2019 4:33 pm
....As the road speed decreases the braking force from the MGU-K increases....
as the road speed decreases doesn't the braking force (rear axle torque) from the K remain afap constant ?
as downshifting gives afap constant '120 kW' power by maintaining afap ideal K rpm (voltage) and ideal K torque (current)

without downshifting the K torque would need to increase with falling roadspeed and the K and C would go off-design
or if the K torque (current) was made constant the K power would fall below '120 kW'

User avatar
henry
263
Joined: Mon Feb 23, 2004 7:49 pm
Location: England

Re: Renault ECUs impounded

Post

Tommy Cookers wrote:
Wed Oct 16, 2019 5:32 pm
henry wrote:
Wed Oct 16, 2019 4:33 pm
....As the road speed decreases the braking force from the MGU-K increases....
as the road speed decreases doesn't the braking force (rear axle torque) from the K remain afap constant ?
as downshifting gives afap constant '120 kW' power by maintaining afap ideal K rpm (voltage) and ideal K torque (current)

without downshifting the K torque would need to increase with falling roadspeed and the K and C would go off-design
or if the K torque (current) was made constant the K power would fall below '120 kW'
The tractive effort at the road is power/road speed. If the power stays constant and the road speed decreases the tractive effort goes up. The gear changes keep the K, and ICE, in their operating range. As you have said in other places they keep the revs high to keep the K torque and current down.
Fortune favours the prepared; she has no favourites and takes no sides.
Truth is confirmed by inspection and delay; falsehood by haste and uncertainty : Tacitus

User avatar
NathanOlder
147
Joined: Fri Mar 02, 2012 9:05 am
Location: Kent

Re: Renault ECUs impounded

Post

So if found guilty some websites are saying they could be thrown out of this years championship, and the last time a team was caught cheating and got punished was Mclaren back in 2007. Surely this is nowhere near as bad as spy-gate! I see this as just another team trying to get away with an unfair advantage. Just like a team turning up with an illegal front wing, or running a car underweight.
GoLandoGo
Lewis v2.0

Does anyone play F1 2020 on Ps4, Now starting our 3rd season. No assists, 50% races.

https://rapidpixelracing.com

User avatar
Marc.W
14
Joined: Sun Mar 04, 2012 1:08 pm
Location: Belfast, N.I

Re: Renault ECUs impounded

Post

NathanOlder wrote:
Thu Oct 17, 2019 7:35 am
So if found guilty some websites are saying they could be thrown out of this years championship, and the last time a team was caught cheating and got punished was Mclaren back in 2007. Surely this is nowhere near as bad as spy-gate! I see this as just another team trying to get away with an unfair advantage. Just like a team turning up with an illegal front wing, or running a car underweight.
Knowingly breaking the rules should carry a hefty penalty, regardless of how little advantage it provided, the Spygate penalty was only that bad because Ferrari and the FIA were pretty much one and the same, BAR got banned for 2 races for their under weight car and Benetton got thrown out of the Championship in 94 for their traction control

Xwang
Xwang
16
Joined: Sun Dec 02, 2012 10:12 am

Re: Renault ECUs impounded

Post

Marc.W wrote:
Thu Oct 17, 2019 9:40 am
NathanOlder wrote:
Thu Oct 17, 2019 7:35 am
So if found guilty some websites are saying they could be thrown out of this years championship, and the last time a team was caught cheating and got punished was Mclaren back in 2007. Surely this is nowhere near as bad as spy-gate! I see this as just another team trying to get away with an unfair advantage. Just like a team turning up with an illegal front wing, or running a car underweight.
Benetton got thrown out of the Championship in 94 for their traction control
I do not remember that (and wikipedia does not report it either).
I'm still learning English so please excuse me if my English is not good enough and feel free to correct me via PM if you want.

User avatar
Marc.W
14
Joined: Sun Mar 04, 2012 1:08 pm
Location: Belfast, N.I

Re: Renault ECUs impounded

Post

Xwang wrote:
Thu Oct 17, 2019 10:02 am
Marc.W wrote:
Thu Oct 17, 2019 9:40 am
NathanOlder wrote:
Thu Oct 17, 2019 7:35 am
So if found guilty some websites are saying they could be thrown out of this years championship, and the last time a team was caught cheating and got punished was Mclaren back in 2007. Surely this is nowhere near as bad as spy-gate! I see this as just another team trying to get away with an unfair advantage. Just like a team turning up with an illegal front wing, or running a car underweight.
Benetton got thrown out of the Championship in 94 for their traction control
I do not remember that (and wikipedia does not report it either).
My mistake, for some reason I thought they were disqualified.