Renault ECUs impounded

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bill shoe
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Re: Renault ECUs impounded

Post by bill shoe » Tue Oct 15, 2019 1:05 am

oops, never mind.

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Re: Renault ECUs impounded

Post by thestig84 » Tue Oct 15, 2019 2:27 pm

bigblue wrote:
Mon Oct 14, 2019 8:21 pm
Maybe the bias changed between every corner. Not sure a driver would be fiddling around that much, so sort of a driver brake aid ? Just speculating.
Anyway, how did Racing Point figure this out ? Examination of onboard images ?
I think the helmet cam from winter testing is pretty suspicious
Top left of dash. Brake Bias looks like it changes with no movement of hands also mid corner in one instance !?!
What do you think?
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rogazilla
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Re: Renault ECUs impounded

Post by rogazilla » Tue Oct 15, 2019 5:36 pm

What if this is ECU adjusting brake regen which in term the bias is adjusted?

r101
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Re: Renault ECUs impounded

Post by r101 » Tue Oct 15, 2019 11:11 pm

rogazilla wrote:
Tue Oct 15, 2019 5:36 pm
What if this is ECU adjusting brake regen which in term the bias is adjusted?
From What I have read, that would be legal. Rear braking can be ECU controlled, because of the hybrid part.

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Re: Renault ECUs impounded

Post by Andres125sx » Wed Oct 16, 2019 7:02 am

Maybe it was not an automatic change from one corner to the next (what is done by drivers easily), but an automatic adjustment on each braking. I mean, when they hit the brakes the balance is set as the driver adjusted it, and as the speed decreases balance is automatically adjusted because optimal balance is different at 250km/h than it is at the end of the braking when entering the corner at 140km/h. Drivers can´t change it during a braking

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Re: Renault ECUs impounded

Post by henry » Wed Oct 16, 2019 8:53 am

Andres125sx wrote:
Wed Oct 16, 2019 7:02 am
Maybe it was not an automatic change from one corner to the next (what is done by drivers easily), but an automatic adjustment on each braking. I mean, when they hit the brakes the balance is set as the driver adjusted it, and as the speed decreases balance is automatically adjusted because optimal balance is different at 250km/h than it is at the end of the braking when entering the corner at 140km/h. Drivers can´t change it during a braking
I think that is what the “brake migration” setting, seen on all steering wheels, does. It progressively reduces front bias as the speed, and hence load transfer, drops. If they didn’t do that the MGU-K harvest would not be possible below about 180kph.
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sosic2121
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Re: Renault ECUs impounded

Post by sosic2121 » Wed Oct 16, 2019 2:19 pm

henry wrote:
Wed Oct 16, 2019 8:53 am
Andres125sx wrote:
Wed Oct 16, 2019 7:02 am
Maybe it was not an automatic change from one corner to the next (what is done by drivers easily), but an automatic adjustment on each braking. I mean, when they hit the brakes the balance is set as the driver adjusted it, and as the speed decreases balance is automatically adjusted because optimal balance is different at 250km/h than it is at the end of the braking when entering the corner at 140km/h. Drivers can´t change it during a braking
I think that is what the “brake migration” setting, seen on all steering wheels, does. It progressively reduces front bias as the speed, and hence load transfer, drops. If they didn’t do that the MGU-K harvest would not be possible below about 180kph.
henry wrote:
Wed Oct 16, 2019 8:53 am
Andres125sx wrote:
Wed Oct 16, 2019 7:02 am
Maybe it was not an automatic change from one corner to the next (what is done by drivers easily), but an automatic adjustment on each braking. I mean, when they hit the brakes the balance is set as the driver adjusted it, and as the speed decreases balance is automatically adjusted because optimal balance is different at 250km/h than it is at the end of the braking when entering the corner at 140km/h. Drivers can´t change it during a braking
I think that is what the “brake migration” setting, seen on all steering wheels, does. It progressively reduces front bias as the speed, and hence load transfer, drops. If they didn’t do that the MGU-K harvest would not be possible below about 180kph.
Please explain more.
Do you believe that brake balance adjusts only front and rear brakes? I believe they adjust front brakes vs rear brakes+mguk,
so I don't understand why would break balance impact harvesting.

Also I believe that at high speed it's beneficial to have almost 50:50 brake balance, and as car slowes down to have more and more braking power (%, not absolute) on front axle.

So, IMO Renault drivers would still choose balance they wanted depending on the speed they start breaking with, and then car would optimize it self rest of the way.
If anyone has some video or evidence of this can you please share.

Polite
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Re: Renault ECUs impounded

Post by Polite » Wed Oct 16, 2019 4:08 pm

any news?

Today was the day...

henry
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Re: Renault ECUs impounded

Post by henry » Wed Oct 16, 2019 4:33 pm

sosic2121 wrote:
Wed Oct 16, 2019 2:19 pm
henry wrote:
Wed Oct 16, 2019 8:53 am
Andres125sx wrote:
Wed Oct 16, 2019 7:02 am
Maybe it was not an automatic change from one corner to the next (what is done by drivers easily), but an automatic adjustment on each braking. I mean, when they hit the brakes the balance is set as the driver adjusted it, and as the speed decreases balance is automatically adjusted because optimal balance is different at 250km/h than it is at the end of the braking when entering the corner at 140km/h. Drivers can´t change it during a braking
I think that is what the “brake migration” setting, seen on all steering wheels, does. It progressively reduces front bias as the speed, and hence load transfer, drops. If they didn’t do that the MGU-K harvest would not be possible below about 180kph.
henry wrote:
Wed Oct 16, 2019 8:53 am
Andres125sx wrote:
Wed Oct 16, 2019 7:02 am
Maybe it was not an automatic change from one corner to the next (what is done by drivers easily), but an automatic adjustment on each braking. I mean, when they hit the brakes the balance is set as the driver adjusted it, and as the speed decreases balance is automatically adjusted because optimal balance is different at 250km/h than it is at the end of the braking when entering the corner at 140km/h. Drivers can´t change it during a braking
I think that is what the “brake migration” setting, seen on all steering wheels, does. It progressively reduces front bias as the speed, and hence load transfer, drops. If they didn’t do that the MGU-K harvest would not be possible below about 180kph.
Please explain more.
Do you believe that brake balance adjusts only front and rear brakes? I believe they adjust front brakes vs rear brakes+mguk,
so I don't understand why would break balance impact harvesting.

Also I believe that at high speed it's beneficial to have almost 50:50 brake balance, and as car slowes down to have more and more braking power (%, not absolute) on front axle.

So, IMO Renault drivers would still choose balance they wanted depending on the speed they start breaking with, and then car would optimize it self rest of the way.
If anyone has some video or evidence of this can you please share.
I think the brake balance is as you say, the rear force is the combination of friction brakes and MGU-K.

The difference between high speed and low speed is the opposite of what you think. At high speed the most braking force is applied by the front brakes. As the speed decreases the proportion at the front reduces. This is because as the speed reduces the rate of deceleration reduces and so the load transfer decreases.

As the road speed decreases the braking force from the MGU-K increases. When the MGU-K power is 120kW there is a speed at which that force is too high for the rear tyres to cope with and the MGU-K harvest power has to be reduced as the road speed falls further. I was a little over enthusiastic saying 180kph, it’s rather lower. If they didn’t modify the brake bias during the stop, the speed at which the MGU-K can’t run at 120kW would be higher and they would harvest less energy.

Essentially this is the scenario you state. Choosing an initial balance and letting the ECU sort the change. I think they already do this.

There are several factors that would influence the initial choice and the way the balance changes during the stop. Perhaps Renault have automated these things.
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Truth is confirmed by inspection and delay; falsehood by haste and uncertainty : Tacitus

Tommy Cookers
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Re: Renault ECUs impounded

Post by Tommy Cookers » Wed Oct 16, 2019 5:32 pm

henry wrote:
Wed Oct 16, 2019 4:33 pm
....As the road speed decreases the braking force from the MGU-K increases....
as the road speed decreases doesn't the braking force (rear axle torque) from the K remain afap constant ?
as downshifting gives afap constant '120 kW' power by maintaining afap ideal K rpm (voltage) and ideal K torque (current)

without downshifting the K torque would need to increase with falling roadspeed and the K and C would go off-design
or if the K torque (current) was made constant the K power would fall below '120 kW'

henry
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Re: Renault ECUs impounded

Post by henry » Wed Oct 16, 2019 5:56 pm

Tommy Cookers wrote:
Wed Oct 16, 2019 5:32 pm
henry wrote:
Wed Oct 16, 2019 4:33 pm
....As the road speed decreases the braking force from the MGU-K increases....
as the road speed decreases doesn't the braking force (rear axle torque) from the K remain afap constant ?
as downshifting gives afap constant '120 kW' power by maintaining afap ideal K rpm (voltage) and ideal K torque (current)

without downshifting the K torque would need to increase with falling roadspeed and the K and C would go off-design
or if the K torque (current) was made constant the K power would fall below '120 kW'
The tractive effort at the road is power/road speed. If the power stays constant and the road speed decreases the tractive effort goes up. The gear changes keep the K, and ICE, in their operating range. As you have said in other places they keep the revs high to keep the K torque and current down.
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Re: Renault ECUs impounded

Post by NathanOlder » Thu Oct 17, 2019 7:35 am

So if found guilty some websites are saying they could be thrown out of this years championship, and the last time a team was caught cheating and got punished was Mclaren back in 2007. Surely this is nowhere near as bad as spy-gate! I see this as just another team trying to get away with an unfair advantage. Just like a team turning up with an illegal front wing, or running a car underweight.
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Re: Renault ECUs impounded

Post by Marc.W » Thu Oct 17, 2019 9:40 am

NathanOlder wrote:
Thu Oct 17, 2019 7:35 am
So if found guilty some websites are saying they could be thrown out of this years championship, and the last time a team was caught cheating and got punished was Mclaren back in 2007. Surely this is nowhere near as bad as spy-gate! I see this as just another team trying to get away with an unfair advantage. Just like a team turning up with an illegal front wing, or running a car underweight.
Knowingly breaking the rules should carry a hefty penalty, regardless of how little advantage it provided, the Spygate penalty was only that bad because Ferrari and the FIA were pretty much one and the same, BAR got banned for 2 races for their under weight car and Benetton got thrown out of the Championship in 94 for their traction control

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Re: Renault ECUs impounded

Post by Xwang » Thu Oct 17, 2019 10:02 am

Marc.W wrote:
Thu Oct 17, 2019 9:40 am
NathanOlder wrote:
Thu Oct 17, 2019 7:35 am
So if found guilty some websites are saying they could be thrown out of this years championship, and the last time a team was caught cheating and got punished was Mclaren back in 2007. Surely this is nowhere near as bad as spy-gate! I see this as just another team trying to get away with an unfair advantage. Just like a team turning up with an illegal front wing, or running a car underweight.
Benetton got thrown out of the Championship in 94 for their traction control
I do not remember that (and wikipedia does not report it either).

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Re: Renault ECUs impounded

Post by Marc.W » Thu Oct 17, 2019 10:21 am

Xwang wrote:
Thu Oct 17, 2019 10:02 am
Marc.W wrote:
Thu Oct 17, 2019 9:40 am
NathanOlder wrote:
Thu Oct 17, 2019 7:35 am
So if found guilty some websites are saying they could be thrown out of this years championship, and the last time a team was caught cheating and got punished was Mclaren back in 2007. Surely this is nowhere near as bad as spy-gate! I see this as just another team trying to get away with an unfair advantage. Just like a team turning up with an illegal front wing, or running a car underweight.
Benetton got thrown out of the Championship in 94 for their traction control
I do not remember that (and wikipedia does not report it either).
My mistake, for some reason I thought they were disqualified.