Renault ECUs impounded

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Tommy Cookers
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Re: Renault ECUs impounded

Post by Tommy Cookers » Thu Oct 17, 2019 10:43 am

henry wrote:
Wed Oct 16, 2019 5:56 pm
Tommy Cookers wrote:
Wed Oct 16, 2019 5:32 pm
henry wrote:
Wed Oct 16, 2019 4:33 pm
....As the road speed decreases the braking force from the MGU-K increases....
as the road speed decreases doesn't the braking force (rear axle torque) from the K remain afap constant ?
as downshifting gives afap constant '120 kW' power by maintaining afap ideal K rpm (voltage) and ideal K torque (current)

without downshifting the K torque would need to increase with falling roadspeed and the K and C would go off-design
or if the K torque (current) was made constant the K power would fall below '120 kW'
The tractive effort at the road is power/road speed. If the power stays constant and the road speed decreases the tractive effort goes up. The gear changes keep the K, and ICE, in their operating range. As you have said in other places they keep the revs high to keep the K torque and current down.
yes that's right (and I was wrong)

downshifting is the (major) mechanism increasing the regen braking axle torque as road speed reduces
so the mechanical side is apparently helping out the electrical side by keeping K torque rather constant
(but step-by-step downshifting is anyway compulsory)
Last edited by Tommy Cookers on Thu Oct 17, 2019 10:47 am, edited 1 time in total.

browney
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Re: Renault ECUs impounded

Post by browney » Thu Oct 17, 2019 10:45 am

Has it been confirmed how racing point found out?

r101
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Re: Renault ECUs impounded

Post by r101 » Thu Oct 17, 2019 11:45 am

Marc.W wrote:
Thu Oct 17, 2019 10:21 am
Xwang wrote:
Thu Oct 17, 2019 10:02 am
Marc.W wrote:
Thu Oct 17, 2019 9:40 am


Benetton got thrown out of the Championship in 94 for their traction control
I do not remember that (and wikipedia does not report it either).
My mistake, for some reason I thought they were disqualified.
IIRC, it was said at that time that constructors points were taken away but individual titles would stand.

What has been redacted in last 25 years, I have no idea.

Jolle
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Re: Renault ECUs impounded

Post by Jolle » Thu Oct 17, 2019 3:20 pm

r101 wrote:
Thu Oct 17, 2019 11:45 am
Marc.W wrote:
Thu Oct 17, 2019 10:21 am
Xwang wrote:
Thu Oct 17, 2019 10:02 am


I do not remember that (and wikipedia does not report it either).
My mistake, for some reason I thought they were disqualified.
IIRC, it was said at that time that constructors points were taken away but individual titles would stand.

What has been redacted in last 25 years, I have no idea.
Benetton wasn’t penalised, although they proved it was on the car, they couldn’t prove Schumacher used it.

The whole ‘94 season was a dumpster fire...

RZS10
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Re: Renault ECUs impounded

Post by RZS10 » Thu Oct 17, 2019 3:46 pm

1994 was bad, yea ... not only because of the deaths of Senna and Ratzenberger and Schumacher crashing his way to his first title after all the black flag shenanigans and race bans but also because of that controversy...afaik the activation was hidden in a blank spot in the display menu (to avoid being found by scrutineering, obviously) and iirc they actually argued that it was hidden because they did not use it and the FIA actually went with "yea it was there, it was hidden from us, but we totally believe they've never used it" ... Benetton must've had a lot of influence back then because they should have been DSQ'd for that and Michael should have never gotten that WDC.

Wonder whether Renault will also just claim "so yea we programmed this system but we totally never used it swear on me mum" and Masi will be like "ok i believe you"

Marc.W
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Re: Renault ECUs impounded

Post by Marc.W » Thu Oct 17, 2019 5:53 pm

RZS10 wrote:
Thu Oct 17, 2019 3:46 pm
1994 was bad, yea ... not only because of the deaths of Senna and Ratzenberger and Schumacher crashing his way to his first title after all the black flag shenanigans and race bans but also because of that controversy...afaik the activation was hidden in a blank spot in the display menu (to avoid being found by scrutineering, obviously) and iirc they actually argued that it was hidden because they did not use it and the FIA actually went with "yea it was there, it was hidden from us, but we totally believe they've never used it" ... Benetton must've had a lot of influence back then because they should have been DSQ'd for that and Michael should have never gotten that WDC.

Wonder whether Renault will also just claim "so yea we programmed this system but we totally never used it swear on me mum" and Masi will be like "ok i believe you"
Cyril will probably blame McLaren for allowing their ECU to implement such a system :lol:

FW17
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Re: Renault ECUs impounded

Post by FW17 » Thu Oct 17, 2019 6:39 pm

Or Flavio for not investing in the braking department

marmer
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Re: Renault ECUs impounded

Post by marmer » Thu Oct 17, 2019 6:48 pm

Might go some way as to explaning Ric's issues with the brakes compared to his time at red bull if Renault have been working on such and idea all season a d he was used to a more traditional and legal interpretation of brake bias adjustment

Andres125sx
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Re: Renault ECUs impounded

Post by Andres125sx » Thu Oct 17, 2019 7:27 pm

henry wrote:
Wed Oct 16, 2019 8:53 am
Andres125sx wrote:
Wed Oct 16, 2019 7:02 am
Maybe it was not an automatic change from one corner to the next (what is done by drivers easily), but an automatic adjustment on each braking. I mean, when they hit the brakes the balance is set as the driver adjusted it, and as the speed decreases balance is automatically adjusted because optimal balance is different at 250km/h than it is at the end of the braking when entering the corner at 140km/h. Drivers can´t change it during a braking
I think that is what the “brake migration” setting, seen on all steering wheels, does. It progressively reduces front bias as the speed, and hence load transfer, drops. If they didn’t do that the MGU-K harvest would not be possible below about 180kph.
Didn´t know, quoted this first reply but all the next are equally interesting, thanks :D

NathanOlder
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Re: Renault ECUs impounded

Post by NathanOlder » Fri Oct 18, 2019 11:43 am

So does anyone know the latest on this ? Whats happening ???
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Marc.W
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Re: Renault ECUs impounded

Post by Marc.W » Fri Oct 18, 2019 9:16 pm

NathanOlder wrote:
Fri Oct 18, 2019 11:43 am
So does anyone know the latest on this ? Whats happening ???
Usually, I would say no news is good news, but I would think if everything was found to be above board Renault would be the first to announce something on social media, so maybe there was something

NathanOlder
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Re: Renault ECUs impounded

Post by NathanOlder » Sat Oct 19, 2019 8:47 am

Good points. I guess we will hear during next week. Certainly before next weekend.
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izzy
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Re: Renault ECUs impounded

Post by izzy » Sat Oct 19, 2019 10:49 am

NathanOlder wrote:
Thu Oct 17, 2019 7:35 am
So if found guilty some websites are saying they could be thrown out of this years championship, and the last time a team was caught cheating and got punished was Mclaren back in 2007. Surely this is nowhere near as bad as spy-gate! I see this as just another team trying to get away with an unfair advantage. Just like a team turning up with an illegal front wing, or running a car underweight.
spygate wasn't bad really, it was just made to seem bad. McLaren got caught with 3 tiny things but it got dressed up as stealing the whole car so Max Mosley could get Ron, while Renault got caught with more (also in 2007) and it got casually dismissed so now most people probably don't even know.

This could easily be worse, technically, but in the same way FIA can choose to make it seem huge or trivial. ( unfounded allegation removed)

Renault obviously have some kind of excuse ready, but RP obviously have something to go on as well, so most likely it'll get banned, maybe with a little fine, but nothing too humiliating as they don't want Renault to just clear off and leave. Anyway so i reckon it doesn't matter what it actually is, they'll manage it to suit themselves

saviour stivala
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Re: Renault ECUs impounded

Post by saviour stivala » Sat Oct 19, 2019 11:21 am

browney wrote:
Thu Oct 17, 2019 10:45 am
Has it been confirmed how racing point found out?
What can it be other than a whistleblower? It is said that racing point’s protest is a 12 page very specific and detailed protest, outlining why it believes Renault is using such asystem.

NathanOlder
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Re: Renault ECUs impounded

Post by NathanOlder » Sat Oct 19, 2019 12:54 pm

Yeah I'm not sure what would take 12 pages other than a very detailed report.
I assumed they just saw from the onboard that the Renault drivers weren't changing brake bias with controls on the wheel.
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