[ 2020 ] AMG Mercedes F1 Team - Mercedes

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El Scorchio
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Joined: Mon Jul 29, 2019 11:41 am

Re: [ 2020 ] AMG Mercedes F1 Team - Mercedes

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adrianjordan wrote:
Fri Jul 31, 2020 10:38 am
El Scorchio wrote:
Fri Jul 31, 2020 9:31 am
adrianjordan wrote:
Fri Jul 31, 2020 9:13 am
Three years, so equal Schumacher this year, beat him next year and win under the new regs whilst helping to bed in a replacement at Merc...??

I just don't see Lewis going to any other team at this point. I feel we'll either see an announcement of a new contract this weekend at Silverstone or in Germany whenever that race is.

With this press release, my money is on this weekend.
Agree. If he wants to go for records then he should stay. He’d be mad to move to Ferrari at the moment If he wants that. That’s the only place I’d see him going though, just for completeness or to satisfy a need/ambition.

Maybe if they indulge him they’ll let an old man drive round for a season as LeClercs team mate in 2023 or something! Can’t see that happening though. Doesn’t really make sense.
Lewis has said many times that Ferrari holds no appeal for him.

Why would it? It's in Italy and hasn't exactly shown itself to be a stable team over the last decade!!
In terms of performance currently (sadly) none! Really I was just musing, but I'm sure just for prestige of it, it'll cross his mind. I know he's said what he's said, but of course while under contract at their current nemesis, he can't really say otherwise :)

Anyway as you've eluded to, probably a moot point the way things stand!

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El Scorchio
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Re: [ 2020 ] AMG Mercedes F1 Team - Mercedes

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El Scorchio wrote:
Fri Jul 31, 2020 10:56 am
adrianjordan wrote:
Fri Jul 31, 2020 10:38 am
El Scorchio wrote:
Fri Jul 31, 2020 9:31 am


Agree. If he wants to go for records then he should stay. He’d be mad to move to Ferrari at the moment If he wants that. That’s the only place I’d see him going though, just for completeness or to satisfy a need/ambition.

Maybe if they indulge him they’ll let an old man drive round for a season as LeClercs team mate in 2023 or something! Can’t see that happening though. Doesn’t really make sense.
Lewis has said many times that Ferrari holds no appeal for him.

Why would it? It's in Italy and hasn't exactly shown itself to be a stable team over the last decade!!
In terms of performance currently (sadly) none! Really I was just musing, but I'm sure just for prestige of it, it'll cross his mind. I know he's said what he's said, but of course while under contract at their current nemesis, he can't really say otherwise :)

Anyway as you've alluded to, probably a moot point the way things stand!

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Schuttelberg
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Joined: Mon Jul 27, 2015 11:02 am

Re: [ 2020 ] AMG Mercedes F1 Team - Mercedes

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Phil wrote:
Thu Jul 30, 2020 1:15 pm
Schuttelberg wrote:
Thu Jul 30, 2020 2:38 am
History doesn't always mean it tells the future but it does suggest that while Mercedes has been making beasts on the track, their YDP has been a big waste/sham. After Hamilton, they've promoted exactly nobody and Wehrlein and Ocon both were ready for the step up but Bottas continues.
I'm not sure the "competition" is much better in what their YDP achieves. RedBull has effectively put all their eggs in Max's basket - the result being that they lost Daniel Riccardo. Along the way, they have alienated drivers with huge prospects (-> Buemi, Alguarsuari), one of which has continued to be very successful.

If they lose Max, good luck with their remaining drivers, as none of them seem up to the job of stepping up. There's also the fact that every year, F2 produces a new champion and new talent, but F1 drivers generally tend to stay a couple of years and have long careers (10+ years). With limited seats and drives, it can't add up.

Mercedes also doesn't have a second team (like RedBull has). All they can do is make it more lucrative for their customer teams to take their junior drivers. Some might be willing to, not all might want to. Torro-Rosso, I mean Alpha Tauri doesn't have a choice.

Same applies to Ferrari somewhat. Who is their next young prospect after Leclerc? Giovinazzi?
It seems that you're unable to accept any criticism of Mercedes. I'll still try to make my views clearer-

The "competition" is streets ahead of Mercedes in this regard and Daimler could be caught pants down if Hamilton decides to do something else. They were extremely fortunate that it was Rosberg who quit 2016 and not Hamilton because if you pitch the idea of a Bottas/Rosberg line up, it won't float with fans, sponsors, results and it's a domino effect.

Let's first look at Ferrari- They currently have Leclerc already at 21/22 in the main team. He's won races and is absolutely ready for the big time. He may not beat Hamilton in equal cars, but he will run him close and I believe with a slightly better car (regularly 0.1 seconds ahead), he will beat him.
They now have Sainz who in my opinion is absolutely in the top brass of drivers. I don't think he's a match for Verstappen mile for mile but he's every bit as good as Leclerc.

So you're talking about two absolutely top drivers that will be with the team for a while. At least the next 3-5 years. That's a lot of stability and probably their peaks in terms of speed.

I think Illot, Scwartzman, Schumacher are all waiting in the wings. I expect at least two of them to make it to F1 and at least one to be able to play a good enough rear gunner role although I think Illot will win races at least.

Also, it's extremely convenient for you to forget Bianchi who was clearly being groomed for the Ferrari seat and I actually believe he would have been a decent match for Vettel and now Leclerc too. That he passed away, is simply unfortunate but it doesn't speak lesser of the FDA.

Let's now look at Red Bull- Max is there. End of. I find the criticism of Red Bull in Daniel's matter just laughable. Daniel has been on a rant for 2 years about his move and without turning a wheel in 2020 he decided to jump ship again. He has clearly said that in terms of equipment or opportunity, Red Bull never compromised him. He simply had run his course with them. At the same time, he isn't off the same opinion as RBR of the crash at Baku with Max.
To me, it's very obvious that Daniel is simply impatient to be in a winning car and he is utterly and totally confused. Red Bull did not abandon him and because of their loyalty to him, they ended up losing Sainz as well who is another product of the same academy.
I think Alex has been at RBR for less than a year. To jump teams mid way and now have the car he has to drive, have a podium t-boned and then a race win as well. I think people love to just look at a sheet of paper with the results on it and be "oh look at his stats, he is rubbish."
There is a reason the likes of Leclerc, Russell and Verstappen are defending him and a reason why a Vettel fan like me feels RBR would be insane to opt for Vettel in his place. He's been excellent in his junior career, his race pace has been on point in F1 and he was qualifying well at STR but clearly he is struggling with something on Saturday in the senior team. It is only fair that he's at least given this season to prove himself.
Gasly I feel is another very god young driver. RBR gave him a chance and it didn't work out but it doesn't mean he can't get another chance.
Kvyat I think is the least likely to progress but he also had a chance at the senior team.
I think of the previous lot, Buemi and Vergne could have got more chances but the RBR YDP is just a ruthless machine.

It is safe to conclude that RBR has been the best team in terms of giving young talent a chance and not just a chance at the bread crumbs but at the whole turkey, so to speak. Vettel, Ricciardo, Kvyat, Verstappen, Gasly and now Albon. Had it not been for Ricciardo, Sainz would have 100% been driving for the senior team as well. I think to give 6 drivers a chance in 7 years in a big team, that's a pretty damn impressive programme and both Vettel and Sainz might drive for them too.

Let's now take a look at Mercedes- They funded Hamilton and thank you to them for that but it was really Ron Dennis who pushed for him to take the McLaren seat right of the bat. I think without a culture for YDP's it's really hard to ascertain who made the call. Let's just assume that it was Mercedes. I think if we are being fair, the first time they really could put someone in the car from their own programme was Wehrlein in 2016? I mean, the guy had tested for them, beaten all his team mates to a pulp and was clearly absolutely ready for the move but a shareholder in the team decided to promote a driver he himself managed. I don't know how such a conflict of interest happens, but whatever. I think Bottas also deserved his chance so to speak at that stage but Mercedes basically just made no use of investing in Wehrlein. I think the next chance presented itself in 2019 where Ocon would have to sit out. I think Ocon is another guy in the same bracket as Leclerc, Verstappen etc and ffs the guy was even money with Perez so early in his career who is a seasoned veteran with absolutely no weaknesses as a F1 driver. Yet, Mercedes decided to keep Bottas when it's absolutely evident that he's a number 2. He will not compete with Hamilton. The same process was basically copy pasted in 2020 with Ocon and now there's Russell as well.

How many young drivers did Mercedes promote? 0.

In all probability, Ocon will be a journeyman and never get a shot at the big time because Russell's stocks are higher at this stage and Hamilton will continue for 2-3 years. If, Mercedes make another unbeatable monster in 2022 which I think they will, this pair could go on longer and Russell will move elsewhere. But, one day Hamilton will let go and Mercedes look like they're willing to be caught pants down when that happens.
"Sebastian there's very, you're a member of a very select few.. Stewart, Lauda, Piquet, Senna, Prost, Schumacher, Fangio.. VETTEL!"

tangodjango
tangodjango
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Re: [ 2020 ] AMG Mercedes F1 Team - Mercedes

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Schuttelberg wrote:
Fri Jul 31, 2020 1:00 pm
Phil wrote:
Thu Jul 30, 2020 1:15 pm
Schuttelberg wrote:
Thu Jul 30, 2020 2:38 am
History doesn't always mean it tells the future but it does suggest that while Mercedes has been making beasts on the track, their YDP has been a big waste/sham. After Hamilton, they've promoted exactly nobody and Wehrlein and Ocon both were ready for the step up but Bottas continues.
I'm not sure the "competition" is much better in what their YDP achieves. RedBull has effectively put all their eggs in Max's basket - the result being that they lost Daniel Riccardo. Along the way, they have alienated drivers with huge prospects (-> Buemi, Alguarsuari), one of which has continued to be very successful.

If they lose Max, good luck with their remaining drivers, as none of them seem up to the job of stepping up. There's also the fact that every year, F2 produces a new champion and new talent, but F1 drivers generally tend to stay a couple of years and have long careers (10+ years). With limited seats and drives, it can't add up.

Mercedes also doesn't have a second team (like RedBull has). All they can do is make it more lucrative for their customer teams to take their junior drivers. Some might be willing to, not all might want to. Torro-Rosso, I mean Alpha Tauri doesn't have a choice.

Same applies to Ferrari somewhat. Who is their next young prospect after Leclerc? Giovinazzi?
It seems that you're unable to accept any criticism of Mercedes. I'll still try to make my views clearer-

The "competition" is streets ahead of Mercedes in this regard and Daimler could be caught pants down if Hamilton decides to do something else. They were extremely fortunate that it was Rosberg who quit 2016 and not Hamilton because if you pitch the idea of a Bottas/Rosberg line up, it won't float with fans, sponsors, results and it's a domino effect.

Let's first look at Ferrari- They currently have Leclerc already at 21/22 in the main team. He's won races and is absolutely ready for the big time. He may not beat Hamilton in equal cars, but he will run him close and I believe with a slightly better car (regularly 0.1 seconds ahead), he will beat him.
They now have Sainz who in my opinion is absolutely in the top brass of drivers. I don't think he's a match for Verstappen mile for mile but he's every bit as good as Leclerc.

So you're talking about two absolutely top drivers that will be with the team for a while. At least the next 3-5 years. That's a lot of stability and probably their peaks in terms of speed.

I think Illot, Scwartzman, Schumacher are all waiting in the wings. I expect at least two of them to make it to F1 and at least one to be able to play a good enough rear gunner role although I think Illot will win races at least.

Also, it's extremely convenient for you to forget Bianchi who was clearly being groomed for the Ferrari seat and I actually believe he would have been a decent match for Vettel and now Leclerc too. That he passed away, is simply unfortunate but it doesn't speak lesser of the FDA.

Let's now look at Red Bull- Max is there. End of. I find the criticism of Red Bull in Daniel's matter just laughable. Daniel has been on a rant for 2 years about his move and without turning a wheel in 2020 he decided to jump ship again. He has clearly said that in terms of equipment or opportunity, Red Bull never compromised him. He simply had run his course with them. At the same time, he isn't off the same opinion as RBR of the crash at Baku with Max.
To me, it's very obvious that Daniel is simply impatient to be in a winning car and he is utterly and totally confused. Red Bull did not abandon him and because of their loyalty to him, they ended up losing Sainz as well who is another product of the same academy.
I think Alex has been at RBR for less than a year. To jump teams mid way and now have the car he has to drive, have a podium t-boned and then a race win as well. I think people love to just look at a sheet of paper with the results on it and be "oh look at his stats, he is rubbish."
There is a reason the likes of Leclerc, Russell and Verstappen are defending him and a reason why a Vettel fan like me feels RBR would be insane to opt for Vettel in his place. He's been excellent in his junior career, his race pace has been on point in F1 and he was qualifying well at STR but clearly he is struggling with something on Saturday in the senior team. It is only fair that he's at least given this season to prove himself.
Gasly I feel is another very god young driver. RBR gave him a chance and it didn't work out but it doesn't mean he can't get another chance.
Kvyat I think is the least likely to progress but he also had a chance at the senior team.
I think of the previous lot, Buemi and Vergne could have got more chances but the RBR YDP is just a ruthless machine.

It is safe to conclude that RBR has been the best team in terms of giving young talent a chance and not just a chance at the bread crumbs but at the whole turkey, so to speak. Vettel, Ricciardo, Kvyat, Verstappen, Gasly and now Albon. Had it not been for Ricciardo, Sainz would have 100% been driving for the senior team as well. I think to give 6 drivers a chance in 7 years in a big team, that's a pretty damn impressive programme and both Vettel and Sainz might drive for them too.

Let's now take a look at Mercedes- They funded Hamilton and thank you to them for that but it was really Ron Dennis who pushed for him to take the McLaren seat right of the bat. I think without a culture for YDP's it's really hard to ascertain who made the call. Let's just assume that it was Mercedes. I think if we are being fair, the first time they really could put someone in the car from their own programme was Wehrlein in 2016? I mean, the guy had tested for them, beaten all his team mates to a pulp and was clearly absolutely ready for the move but a shareholder in the team decided to promote a driver he himself managed. I don't know how such a conflict of interest happens, but whatever. I think Bottas also deserved his chance so to speak at that stage but Mercedes basically just made no use of investing in Wehrlein. I think the next chance presented itself in 2019 where Ocon would have to sit out. I think Ocon is another guy in the same bracket as Leclerc, Verstappen etc and ffs the guy was even money with Perez so early in his career who is a seasoned veteran with absolutely no weaknesses as a F1 driver. Yet, Mercedes decided to keep Bottas when it's absolutely evident that he's a number 2. He will not compete with Hamilton. The same process was basically copy pasted in 2020 with Ocon and now there's Russell as well.

How many young drivers did Mercedes promote? 0.

In all probability, Ocon will be a journeyman and never get a shot at the big time because Russell's stocks are higher at this stage and Hamilton will continue for 2-3 years. If, Mercedes make another unbeatable monster in 2022 which I think they will, this pair could go on longer and Russell will move elsewhere. But, one day Hamilton will let go and Mercedes look like they're willing to be caught pants down when that happens.
If Mercedes build a similar level of car post 22 every single driver on the grid will come running when and if Lewis retires. I wouldn't be surprised if apart from the Ferrari drivers every single driver on the grid out a Mercedes break clause in their contract. But hey good going with your daydreaming.
“Hamilton’s talent is perhaps even more than that of Ayrton or Schumacher or Fernando." - Rubens Barrichello

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Schuttelberg
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Joined: Mon Jul 27, 2015 11:02 am

Re: [ 2020 ] AMG Mercedes F1 Team - Mercedes

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tangodjango wrote:
Fri Jul 31, 2020 1:19 pm
Schuttelberg wrote:
Fri Jul 31, 2020 1:00 pm
Phil wrote:
Thu Jul 30, 2020 1:15 pm


I'm not sure the "competition" is much better in what their YDP achieves. RedBull has effectively put all their eggs in Max's basket - the result being that they lost Daniel Riccardo. Along the way, they have alienated drivers with huge prospects (-> Buemi, Alguarsuari), one of which has continued to be very successful.

If they lose Max, good luck with their remaining drivers, as none of them seem up to the job of stepping up. There's also the fact that every year, F2 produces a new champion and new talent, but F1 drivers generally tend to stay a couple of years and have long careers (10+ years). With limited seats and drives, it can't add up.

Mercedes also doesn't have a second team (like RedBull has). All they can do is make it more lucrative for their customer teams to take their junior drivers. Some might be willing to, not all might want to. Torro-Rosso, I mean Alpha Tauri doesn't have a choice.

Same applies to Ferrari somewhat. Who is their next young prospect after Leclerc? Giovinazzi?
It seems that you're unable to accept any criticism of Mercedes. I'll still try to make my views clearer-

The "competition" is streets ahead of Mercedes in this regard and Daimler could be caught pants down if Hamilton decides to do something else. They were extremely fortunate that it was Rosberg who quit 2016 and not Hamilton because if you pitch the idea of a Bottas/Rosberg line up, it won't float with fans, sponsors, results and it's a domino effect.

Let's first look at Ferrari- They currently have Leclerc already at 21/22 in the main team. He's won races and is absolutely ready for the big time. He may not beat Hamilton in equal cars, but he will run him close and I believe with a slightly better car (regularly 0.1 seconds ahead), he will beat him.
They now have Sainz who in my opinion is absolutely in the top brass of drivers. I don't think he's a match for Verstappen mile for mile but he's every bit as good as Leclerc.

So you're talking about two absolutely top drivers that will be with the team for a while. At least the next 3-5 years. That's a lot of stability and probably their peaks in terms of speed.

I think Illot, Scwartzman, Schumacher are all waiting in the wings. I expect at least two of them to make it to F1 and at least one to be able to play a good enough rear gunner role although I think Illot will win races at least.

Also, it's extremely convenient for you to forget Bianchi who was clearly being groomed for the Ferrari seat and I actually believe he would have been a decent match for Vettel and now Leclerc too. That he passed away, is simply unfortunate but it doesn't speak lesser of the FDA.

Let's now look at Red Bull- Max is there. End of. I find the criticism of Red Bull in Daniel's matter just laughable. Daniel has been on a rant for 2 years about his move and without turning a wheel in 2020 he decided to jump ship again. He has clearly said that in terms of equipment or opportunity, Red Bull never compromised him. He simply had run his course with them. At the same time, he isn't off the same opinion as RBR of the crash at Baku with Max.
To me, it's very obvious that Daniel is simply impatient to be in a winning car and he is utterly and totally confused. Red Bull did not abandon him and because of their loyalty to him, they ended up losing Sainz as well who is another product of the same academy.
I think Alex has been at RBR for less than a year. To jump teams mid way and now have the car he has to drive, have a podium t-boned and then a race win as well. I think people love to just look at a sheet of paper with the results on it and be "oh look at his stats, he is rubbish."
There is a reason the likes of Leclerc, Russell and Verstappen are defending him and a reason why a Vettel fan like me feels RBR would be insane to opt for Vettel in his place. He's been excellent in his junior career, his race pace has been on point in F1 and he was qualifying well at STR but clearly he is struggling with something on Saturday in the senior team. It is only fair that he's at least given this season to prove himself.
Gasly I feel is another very god young driver. RBR gave him a chance and it didn't work out but it doesn't mean he can't get another chance.
Kvyat I think is the least likely to progress but he also had a chance at the senior team.
I think of the previous lot, Buemi and Vergne could have got more chances but the RBR YDP is just a ruthless machine.

It is safe to conclude that RBR has been the best team in terms of giving young talent a chance and not just a chance at the bread crumbs but at the whole turkey, so to speak. Vettel, Ricciardo, Kvyat, Verstappen, Gasly and now Albon. Had it not been for Ricciardo, Sainz would have 100% been driving for the senior team as well. I think to give 6 drivers a chance in 7 years in a big team, that's a pretty damn impressive programme and both Vettel and Sainz might drive for them too.

Let's now take a look at Mercedes- They funded Hamilton and thank you to them for that but it was really Ron Dennis who pushed for him to take the McLaren seat right of the bat. I think without a culture for YDP's it's really hard to ascertain who made the call. Let's just assume that it was Mercedes. I think if we are being fair, the first time they really could put someone in the car from their own programme was Wehrlein in 2016? I mean, the guy had tested for them, beaten all his team mates to a pulp and was clearly absolutely ready for the move but a shareholder in the team decided to promote a driver he himself managed. I don't know how such a conflict of interest happens, but whatever. I think Bottas also deserved his chance so to speak at that stage but Mercedes basically just made no use of investing in Wehrlein. I think the next chance presented itself in 2019 where Ocon would have to sit out. I think Ocon is another guy in the same bracket as Leclerc, Verstappen etc and ffs the guy was even money with Perez so early in his career who is a seasoned veteran with absolutely no weaknesses as a F1 driver. Yet, Mercedes decided to keep Bottas when it's absolutely evident that he's a number 2. He will not compete with Hamilton. The same process was basically copy pasted in 2020 with Ocon and now there's Russell as well.

How many young drivers did Mercedes promote? 0.

In all probability, Ocon will be a journeyman and never get a shot at the big time because Russell's stocks are higher at this stage and Hamilton will continue for 2-3 years. If, Mercedes make another unbeatable monster in 2022 which I think they will, this pair could go on longer and Russell will move elsewhere. But, one day Hamilton will let go and Mercedes look like they're willing to be caught pants down when that happens.
If Mercedes build a similar level of car post 22 every single driver on the grid will come running when and if Lewis retires. I wouldn't be surprised if apart from the Ferrari drivers every single driver on the grid out a Mercedes break clause in their contract. But hey good going with your daydreaming.
What if they make a car like the one in 2018 where it's neck and neck with say a Ferrari and Hamilton has retired? Who's going to steer the ship? Bottas? Or a Russell with no experience of fighting for wins/championships? While Ferrari have Leclerc & Sainz and RBR have Verstappen and Albon/Vettel?
"Sebastian there's very, you're a member of a very select few.. Stewart, Lauda, Piquet, Senna, Prost, Schumacher, Fangio.. VETTEL!"

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Phil
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Joined: Tue Sep 25, 2012 3:22 pm

Re: [ 2020 ] AMG Mercedes F1 Team - Mercedes

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Schuttelberg wrote:
Fri Jul 31, 2020 1:00 pm
It seems that you're unable to accept any criticism of Mercedes. I'll still try to make my views clearer-
I wasn't defending nor do I have a problem with your criticism. I have absolutely no stake in either outcome - if Bottas is retained or not. I'd call it having a discussion where view points differ.

Reading your post however, makes me think that you and many others are simply tired of Mercedes and Hamiltons dominance and thus believe they are under some sort of moral obligation to make lives more difficult for themselves. It might spice up the "show" yes, but it's arguable they'd have any sort of benefit from doing that. Their way so far, like it or not, is proving to be just what they want and is bringing in the results. Why change a winning 'formula', err team?

Lets back track a bit in history and to your comment "RBR has been the best team in terms of giving young talent a chance". Back when RBR was winning, they had zero changes to their line up; Vettel was kept happy and Mark was on a yearly rotating contract. It was only when Webber decided it was time to leave and join Porsche, was someone else promoted. What happened before then (Buemi, Alguersuari) wasn't exactly nice if you follow your own point of reference of what Mercedes should be doing now.

Given their obsession around making Max as happy as they once did Vettel, one can only assume they'll be happy to keep things as they are once they find a good line up that they are happy with - one that probably differs not much than what Mercedes has with Hamilton & Bottas. Speaking of RedBull, why was Sainz never promoted to the 'turkey' when he was rather close to Max in performance during their spell together at Torro-Rosso?

Looking at Ferrari; How is what Mercedes is doing now any different than what Ferrari had with keeping Alonso happy with Massa and later Vettel with Kimi? It was only when the results didn't come that pressure increased that led to a change (Leclerc being promoted to the team).

I think you'll find - all teams want the best outcome for themselves. RedBull is in a special situation because they have two teams. Mercedes does not, period. They [Mercedes] do not have the power to force their young talents at their customer teams. They can try, but it comes at a [financial] cost. When it was decided to keep Hamilton happy by keeping Bottas and not opt for Ocon (although IMO calling it that would be huge disservice to Bottas and might not be what really happened), Mercedes options were limited. The seat that was predestined for Ocon wasn't available (Riccardo snatched it away) and suddenly he was left with no seat. Unfortunate circumstances and chain reaction.

As I said previously, criticize Bottas all you want, but there is zero indication that Ocon or even Russel are as quick or quicker than him. We might think that, but there's no way to know until you put them in the same car. Russel could be the real deal, but he is still young. Ocon has been away for a year and given his performance against Perez, I am not as convinced as some others.

Bottas on the other hand has proven to be quick, at the very least a quick qualifier. That accounts for something. He's won races fair and square against Hamilton. He's a far cry away of being a Heiki (to Hamilton), a Massa (to Alonso), a Kimi (to Vettel), a Gasly/Albon (to Max). Heck, Button was rated highly and Bottas (as was Rosberg) are evidently closer to Hamilton than Button ever was.

As for the question what will Mercedes do if Hamilton calls it quits? Pretty much the same thing as what RedBull would do if Max quits. Or if Leclerc quits (although I have high hopes for Sainz). They will look for the best possible driver they can get. I'm sure some drivers will bend themselves backwards and try to get out of their current contract if Hamiltons seat at Mercedes becomes available. Heck, you might see Max there, as I recall them [Jos] being quite chatty with Toto. At this point, I'd be more worried about what happens to RedBull if Max leaves.

Then there's also Russel and contrary to belief, I am fairly certain Ocon is still Mercedes sponsored driver (despite driving for Renault). There might even be some clauses in his contract there that states that he could be pulled from Renault if a Mercedes seat were to become available.

PS: and if you look at my post history of 2 years ago, or last year (I'm not sure), I think you might find that I was actually in favor of Ocon joining Mercedes at the expense of Bottas. Or in fact, I was vocal about Mercedes snatching up Leclerc if he hadn't been promoted. So I am not at all a 'fan' of Bottas staying in that team. And I personally do not believe in number 1s and number 2s, but think two aggressive drivers is better, even if there is a potential for friction within the team. It is one of the reason why I believe Hamilton is this good - because unlike other drivers who had received preferential treatment within their teams, Hamilton has always been pushed and forced to better himself, making him a stronger competitor.
Not for nothing, Rosberg's Championship is the only thing that lends credibility to Hamilton's recent success. Otherwise, he'd just be the guy who's had the best car. — bhall II
#Team44 supporter

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Schuttelberg
73
Joined: Mon Jul 27, 2015 11:02 am

Re: [ 2020 ] AMG Mercedes F1 Team - Mercedes

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Phil wrote:
Fri Jul 31, 2020 4:23 pm
Schuttelberg wrote:
Fri Jul 31, 2020 1:00 pm
It seems that you're unable to accept any criticism of Mercedes. I'll still try to make my views clearer-
I wasn't defending nor do I have a problem with your criticism. I have absolutely no stake in either outcome - if Bottas is retained or not. I'd call it having a discussion where view points differ.

Reading your post however, makes me think that you and many others are simply tired of Mercedes and Hamiltons dominance and thus believe they are under some sort of moral obligation to make lives more difficult for themselves. It might spice up the "show" yes, but it's arguable they'd have any sort of benefit from doing that. Their way so far, like it or not, is proving to be just what they want and is bringing in the results. Why change a winning 'formula', err team?

Lets back track a bit in history and to your comment "RBR has been the best team in terms of giving young talent a chance". Back when RBR was winning, they had zero changes to their line up; Vettel was kept happy and Mark was on a yearly rotating contract. It was only when Webber decided it was time to leave and join Porsche, was someone else promoted. What happened before then (Buemi, Alguersuari) wasn't exactly nice if you follow your own point of reference of what Mercedes should be doing now.

Given their obsession around making Max as happy as they once did Vettel, one can only assume they'll be happy to keep things as they are once they find a good line up that they are happy with - one that probably differs not much than what Mercedes has with Hamilton & Bottas. Speaking of RedBull, why was Sainz never promoted to the 'turkey' when he was rather close to Max in performance during their spell together at Torro-Rosso?

Looking at Ferrari; How is what Mercedes is doing now any different than what Ferrari had with keeping Alonso happy with Massa and later Vettel with Kimi? It was only when the results didn't come that pressure increased that led to a change (Leclerc being promoted to the team).

I think you'll find - all teams want the best outcome for themselves. RedBull is in a special situation because they have two teams. Mercedes does not, period. They [Mercedes] do not have the power to force their young talents at their customer teams. They can try, but it comes at a [financial] cost. When it was decided to keep Hamilton happy by keeping Bottas and not opt for Ocon (although IMO calling it that would be huge disservice to Bottas and might not be what really happened), Mercedes options were limited. The seat that was predestined for Ocon wasn't available (Riccardo snatched it away) and suddenly he was left with no seat. Unfortunate circumstances and chain reaction.

As I said previously, criticize Bottas all you want, but there is zero indication that Ocon or even Russel are as quick or quicker than him. We might think that, but there's no way to know until you put them in the same car. Russel could be the real deal, but he is still young. Ocon has been away for a year and given his performance against Perez, I am not as convinced as some others.

Bottas on the other hand has proven to be quick, at the very least a quick qualifier. That accounts for something. He's won races fair and square against Hamilton. He's a far cry away of being a Heiki (to Hamilton), a Massa (to Alonso), a Kimi (to Vettel), a Gasly/Albon (to Max). Heck, Button was rated highly and Bottas (as was Rosberg) are evidently closer to Hamilton than Button ever was.

As for the question what will Mercedes do if Hamilton calls it quits? Pretty much the same thing as what RedBull would do if Max quits. Or if Leclerc quits (although I have high hopes for Sainz). They will look for the best possible driver they can get. I'm sure some drivers will bend themselves backwards and try to get out of their current contract if Hamiltons seat at Mercedes becomes available. Heck, you might see Max there, as I recall them [Jos] being quite chatty with Toto. At this point, I'd be more worried about what happens to RedBull if Max leaves.

Then there's also Russel and contrary to belief, I am fairly certain Ocon is still Mercedes sponsored driver (despite driving for Renault). There might even be some clauses in his contract there that states that he could be pulled from Renault if a Mercedes seat were to become available.

PS: and if you look at my post history of 2 years ago, or last year (I'm not sure), I think you might find that I was actually in favor of Ocon joining Mercedes at the expense of Bottas. Or in fact, I was vocal about Mercedes snatching up Leclerc if he hadn't been promoted. So I am not at all a 'fan' of Bottas staying in that team. And I personally do not believe in number 1s and number 2s, but think two aggressive drivers is better, even if there is a potential for friction within the team. It is one of the reason why I believe Hamilton is this good - because unlike other drivers who had received preferential treatment within their teams, Hamilton has always been pushed and forced to better himself, making him a stronger competitor.
I don't think anyone on this forum has any stake with anything that goes on. We wish. It is obviously a discussion but you seem incredibly annoyed every time any criticism is levied at Mercedes or Toto Wolff. I wonder how defensive you would get if I happened to say anything about Hamilton.

Let's now discuss your post in response to mine. I think I have been pretty clear about my views on the Mercedes dominance and been as vocal as anyone could be at some of the BS levied at them like reverse grids, banning of DAS etc. etc. etc. I've only criticised their competition for being so poor. I stand by my belief that having two separate championships of 2020 and 2021 is a load of turd and this is a fact. If you lose a test match in cricket by an innings and 250 runs, you don't start the next with that deficit. It's absolute rubbish because the fans already know the result and you might not like it, but the fans are bigger than Mercedes. So, I am okay with your accusation but it doesn't change my mind or the facts.

Mercedes can choose to put Luca Badoer in the second car if they like. It's their prerogative. What I am discussing is whether this will harm them in the long run. That is simply a discussion point and for a team that prides itself on excellence and rightly so seems to have a gap there that can be filled. Why change a winning formula? You don't, but it's about preparing for a rainy day like the storm Rosberg bought in 2016. I will repeat my point from a previous post- If it was Hamilton who quit in 2016 (which he nearly did in his own words) Mercedes would not have put Bottas in the second car.
Secondly, Mercedes is spending millions on developing these young drivers. It's pretty bad business to spend money developing a product only for someone else to copy it and trademark it. What I mean is that there's no point developing an Ocon and Russell if you're going to lapdog the second seat "because a formula works." The formula is making a dominant car, not having a poor driver in the second seat. You're not going to crack the formula forever specially with a rule change right around the corner.

Coming to your argument about Red Bull & Ferrari- Unlike Bottas, Webber went into 2010 leading the championship challenge for RBR which is convenient to forget. He also was competing for the title in 2012 for a long time and Mark never struggled to dance on the track with the likes of Alonso, Button, Hamilton etc. If you think Bottas is on the same level, it's quite frankly shocking to me but accepted as it's your opinion.
Ferrari were clearly going to put Bianchi in the car alongside Vettel till he tragically passed away. I think Raikkonen was performing pretty much Bottas level in 2018 and Ferrari made the right call by putting Leclerc in. If you're going to have a program in place then you pretty much should back it?

Teams are always looking out for themselves and with my post I am also saying what is right for Mercedes. I think their presence is crucial in the sport with the economy now and unlike other teams they seem reluctant to commit to the sport. A star driver helps the commitment and Hamilton won't be young forever.
"Sebastian there's very, you're a member of a very select few.. Stewart, Lauda, Piquet, Senna, Prost, Schumacher, Fangio.. VETTEL!"

dans79
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Re: [ 2020 ] AMG Mercedes F1 Team - Mercedes

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Schuttelberg wrote:
Fri Jul 31, 2020 5:45 pm
It is obviously a discussion but you seem incredibly annoyed every time any criticism is levied at Mercedes or Toto Wolff. I wonder how defensive you would get if I happened to say anything about Hamilton.
Maybe its because you seem to take great joy in complaining about Toto every chance you get, or least that's how it seems based on a quick look through your posting history.

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Schuttelberg
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Re: [ 2020 ] AMG Mercedes F1 Team - Mercedes

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dans79 wrote:
Fri Jul 31, 2020 6:14 pm
Schuttelberg wrote:
Fri Jul 31, 2020 5:45 pm
It is obviously a discussion but you seem incredibly annoyed every time any criticism is levied at Mercedes or Toto Wolff. I wonder how defensive you would get if I happened to say anything about Hamilton.
Maybe its because you seem to take great joy in complaining about Toto every chance you get, or least that's how it seems based on a quick look through your posting history.
Yeah, I really loathe that bloke. Hamilton & Mercedes though =D>
"Sebastian there's very, you're a member of a very select few.. Stewart, Lauda, Piquet, Senna, Prost, Schumacher, Fangio.. VETTEL!"

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godlameroso
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Re: [ 2020 ] AMG Mercedes F1 Team - Mercedes

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The Mercedes seems to be unrivaled in mid speed corners. The fact there aren't that many around here may be why they're not miles ahead like they were in the last 2 races. Or it could be the heat forcing them to run conservative.
The height of cultivation is really nothing special. It is merely simplicity; the ability to express the utmost with the minimum. Mr.Lee

e30ernest
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Re: [ 2020 ] AMG Mercedes F1 Team - Mercedes

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Schuttelberg wrote:
Fri Jul 31, 2020 6:21 pm
dans79 wrote:
Fri Jul 31, 2020 6:14 pm
Schuttelberg wrote:
Fri Jul 31, 2020 5:45 pm
It is obviously a discussion but you seem incredibly annoyed every time any criticism is levied at Mercedes or Toto Wolff. I wonder how defensive you would get if I happened to say anything about Hamilton.
Maybe its because you seem to take great joy in complaining about Toto every chance you get, or least that's how it seems based on a quick look through your posting history.
Yeah, I really loathe that bloke. Hamilton & Mercedes though =D>
So genuinely curious... Why do you hate Toto? He seems to be running the team well. On the social front, Mercedes is probably the best right now with connecting with its fans. He's managed the driver front extremely well and steered the team across regulation changes while staying on top.

Is it because he constantly downplays his team's performance? Maybe that's exactly why Mercedes are good? If they always put into their minds that their competition is better, or that they have more room to improve, then maybe that's what's pushing their team to this height.

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Pouyan
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Re: [ 2020 ] AMG Mercedes F1 Team - Mercedes

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Today's results just reminds us of how great of a team Mercedes actually is and I'm not even a fan.
They have excellent working atmosphere,everything is clear,there are no politics,no ego driven people to mess things up. An stark contrast to Ferrari for example. Within Ferrari,people come and go,things change,there's no stability.
Back during the Ross Brawn era the basic structure of the Mercedes team was put together and most of it is intact to this day. When things weren't going their way they didn't point fingers and blame each other and they didn't fire people left and right like Ferrari used to do back then. They didn't expect immediate success (Again,like Ferrari used to do) and knew they have to wait for it. in 2013 first signs of success were finally evident.
I still remember people commenting Mercedes is getting to many roosters in one room (reference to them hiring multiple ex technical directors) but look at them now,they make everyone else look lost.

SmallSoldier
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Re: [ 2020 ] AMG Mercedes F1 Team - Mercedes

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godlameroso wrote:The Mercedes seems to be unrivaled in mid speed corners. The fact there aren't that many around here may be why they're not miles ahead like they were in the last 2 races. Or it could be the heat forcing them to run conservative.
You don’t consider a full second to the closest car not been miles ahead? Lol


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proteus
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Re: [ 2020 ] AMG Mercedes F1 Team - Mercedes

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SmallSoldier wrote:
Sat Aug 01, 2020 8:52 pm
godlameroso wrote:The Mercedes seems to be unrivaled in mid speed corners. The fact there aren't that many around here may be why they're not miles ahead like they were in the last 2 races. Or it could be the heat forcing them to run conservative.
You don’t consider a full second to the closest car not been miles ahead? Lol


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And i dare to say they havent pushed for their max potential either. If they would give everything they have the gap would be north to 2 seconds easily. They are in league of their own.
If i would get the money to start my own F1 team, i would revive Arrows

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godlameroso
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Re: [ 2020 ] AMG Mercedes F1 Team - Mercedes

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SmallSoldier wrote:
Sat Aug 01, 2020 8:52 pm
godlameroso wrote:The Mercedes seems to be unrivaled in mid speed corners. The fact there aren't that many around here may be why they're not miles ahead like they were in the last 2 races. Or it could be the heat forcing them to run conservative.
You don’t consider a full second to the closest car not been miles ahead? Lol


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In race pace, ultimate pace, that Mercedes is just obscene. They'll pull away, not doubting that, just they won't be able to pull a second a lap every lap.
The height of cultivation is really nothing special. It is merely simplicity; the ability to express the utmost with the minimum. Mr.Lee