Mercedes W11

A place to discuss the characteristics of the cars in Formula One, both current as well as historical. Laptimes, driver worshipping and team chatter does not belong here.
zibby43
zibby43
440
Joined: Sat Mar 04, 2017 11:16 am

Re: Mercedes W11

Post

mkay wrote:
Mon Aug 31, 2020 9:10 am
Mark Hughes stating that Merc went higher DF in part because they can’t get adequate performance out of their low downforce package, and that RB would have likely been a lot closer had they gone lower DF (as they have a comparatively better package).

This has somewhat been echoed by Shovlin in the post race debrief, actually. Team needs to dig deep over the coming week to come up with something otherwise Monza could be troublesome, especially with the new FIA directive on engine modes.
I read that too, but Monza is quite different in that requires a complete low-downforce package (not a compromise with just a skinnier RW), since there is no section like S2 at Spa.

It seems like Merc's problems were with balance when running the smaller wing. So it may've been they couldn't get the car balanced front-to-rear when running the smaller wing.

Merc's complete low-downforce package was quite competitive at Monza last year, with them being within a tenth of Ferrari.

zibby43
zibby43
440
Joined: Sat Mar 04, 2017 11:16 am

Re: Mercedes W11

Post

Great rear wing/rear bodywork comparison:

Image

(via Motorsport)

User avatar
SiLo
95
Joined: Sun Jul 25, 2010 6:09 pm

Re: Mercedes W11

Post

zibby43 wrote:
Tue Sep 01, 2020 7:51 am
Great rear wing/rear bodywork comparison:

https://cdn-5.motorsport.com/images/mgl ... riso-1.jpg

(via Motorsport)
You can see the change in the rear cooling outlet here as well. Wonder if it was because the underside of the rear wing was higher up, so they could move the cooling outlet a bit and free up more space either side.
Felipe Baby!

zibby43
zibby43
440
Joined: Sat Mar 04, 2017 11:16 am

Re: Mercedes W11

Post

SiLo wrote:
Tue Sep 01, 2020 9:17 am
zibby43 wrote:
Tue Sep 01, 2020 7:51 am
Great rear wing/rear bodywork comparison:

https://cdn-5.motorsport.com/images/mgl ... riso-1.jpg

(via Motorsport)
You can see the change in the rear cooling outlet here as well. Wonder if it was because the underside of the rear wing was higher up, so they could move the cooling outlet a bit and free up more space either side.
Could be! As mentioned earlier, it could also be in anticipation of the extra cooling requirements necessitated by the high-throttle application circuits.

ispano6
ispano6
251
Joined: Thu Mar 09, 2017 10:56 pm
Location: my playseat

Re: Mercedes W11

Post

From F1
A look at the W11 upgrades that show how hard Mercedes are pushing to stay ahead
https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/arti ... fTf46.html

The distinctive bull horn flow conditioners atop the nose which direct the air over the upper surfaces of the sidepods, reducing lift and making the aerodynamics more efficient now have a more twisted profile, with flick-ups to trip the air into vortices, helping with the flow further back.

The upgrades that helped Mercedes step it up in Belgium
From Motorsport
With main rival Red Bull appearing to have closed in recently, Mercedes responded to the potential threat with a raft of changes that have further improved the W11 and optimised it for low-downforce circuits.
...
However, as part of its Spa upgrade package, these fins have now had their height increased slightly, their surface lengthened and their overall shape sculpted. The design is now much more reminiscent of that used by Red Bull.
Image

zibby43
zibby43
440
Joined: Sat Mar 04, 2017 11:16 am

Re: Mercedes W11

Post

ispano6 wrote:
Tue Sep 01, 2020 8:35 pm
From F1
A look at the W11 upgrades that show how hard Mercedes are pushing to stay ahead
https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/arti ... fTf46.html

The distinctive bull horn flow conditioners atop the nose which direct the air over the upper surfaces of the sidepods, reducing lift and making the aerodynamics more efficient now have a more twisted profile, with flick-ups to trip the air into vortices, helping with the flow further back.

The upgrades that helped Mercedes step it up in Belgium
From Motorsport
With main rival Red Bull appearing to have closed in recently, Mercedes responded to the potential threat with a raft of changes that have further improved the W11 and optimised it for low-downforce circuits.
...
However, as part of its Spa upgrade package, these fins have now had their height increased slightly, their surface lengthened and their overall shape sculpted. The design is now much more reminiscent of that used by Red Bull.
https://cdn-1.motorsport.com/images/mgl ... riso-1.jpg
Truly incredible how much engineering/development goes into such visibly tiny parts. And what's even more incredible is how such tiny parts can end up having significant contributions to the overall flow structures as they pass downstream. Thanks for sharing. :D

ispano6
ispano6
251
Joined: Thu Mar 09, 2017 10:56 pm
Location: my playseat

Re: Mercedes W11

Post

zibby43 wrote:
Tue Sep 01, 2020 10:00 pm
ispano6 wrote:
Tue Sep 01, 2020 8:35 pm
From F1
A look at the W11 upgrades that show how hard Mercedes are pushing to stay ahead
https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/arti ... fTf46.html

The distinctive bull horn flow conditioners atop the nose which direct the air over the upper surfaces of the sidepods, reducing lift and making the aerodynamics more efficient now have a more twisted profile, with flick-ups to trip the air into vortices, helping with the flow further back.

The upgrades that helped Mercedes step it up in Belgium
From Motorsport
With main rival Red Bull appearing to have closed in recently, Mercedes responded to the potential threat with a raft of changes that have further improved the W11 and optimised it for low-downforce circuits.
...
However, as part of its Spa upgrade package, these fins have now had their height increased slightly, their surface lengthened and their overall shape sculpted. The design is now much more reminiscent of that used by Red Bull.
https://cdn-1.motorsport.com/images/mgl ... riso-1.jpg
Truly incredible how much engineering/development goes into such visibly tiny parts. And what's even more incredible is how such tiny parts can end up having significant contributions to the overall flow structures as they pass downstream. Thanks for sharing. :D
They do say imitation is the biggest form of flattery right. I wonder how much engineering they had to really do. Probably hired the RP guy who was able to deduce the designs from photos!

tangodjango
tangodjango
46
Joined: Sat Mar 14, 2020 10:38 pm

Re: Mercedes W11

Post

ispano6 wrote:
Tue Sep 01, 2020 10:21 pm
zibby43 wrote:
Tue Sep 01, 2020 10:00 pm
Truly incredible how much engineering/development goes into such visibly tiny parts. And what's even more incredible is how such tiny parts can end up having significant contributions to the overall flow structures as they pass downstream. Thanks for sharing. :D
They do say imitation is the biggest form of flattery right. I wonder how much engineering they had to really do. Probably hired the RP guy who was able to deduce the designs from photos!
Seems like the upgrade worked so maybe Red Bull should have hired the RP guy you mention when they copied the entire Mercedes nose concept! Might have saved them a lot of trouble!
“Hamilton’s talent is perhaps even more than that of Ayrton or Schumacher or Fernando." - Rubens Barrichello

zibby43
zibby43
440
Joined: Sat Mar 04, 2017 11:16 am

Re: Mercedes W11

Post

ispano6 wrote:
Tue Sep 01, 2020 10:21 pm
zibby43 wrote:
Tue Sep 01, 2020 10:00 pm
Truly incredible how much engineering/development goes into such visibly tiny parts. And what's even more incredible is how such tiny parts can end up having significant contributions to the overall flow structures as they pass downstream. Thanks for sharing. :D
They do say imitation is the biggest form of flattery right. I wonder how much engineering they had to really do. Probably hired the RP guy who was able to deduce the designs from photos!
Uh, what?

The W10 introduced these ears last year. The chassis ears on the W11 in Spa were just a further refinement of the design they had last year, and carried over to this year's car.

Image

The RB15 did not have these. However, if we're talking about copying, the RB16 copied the W10 by putting them on the RB16 this year. They also copied the Mercedes "cape" solution.

Image

Besides, these ears appeared on previous generations of cars. Just like countless other bits that all the teams use.

e30ernest
e30ernest
12
Joined: Wed Feb 29, 2012 7:47 am

Re: Mercedes W11

Post

zibby43 wrote:
Tue Sep 01, 2020 10:56 pm
ispano6 wrote:
Tue Sep 01, 2020 10:21 pm
zibby43 wrote:
Tue Sep 01, 2020 10:00 pm


Truly incredible how much engineering/development goes into such visibly tiny parts. And what's even more incredible is how such tiny parts can end up having significant contributions to the overall flow structures as they pass downstream. Thanks for sharing. :D
They do say imitation is the biggest form of flattery right. I wonder how much engineering they had to really do. Probably hired the RP guy who was able to deduce the designs from photos!
Uh, what?

The W10 introduced these ears last year. The chassis ears on the W11 in Spa were just a further refinement of the design they had last year, and carried over to this year's car.

https://i.redd.it/wuccbt7u14j21.jpg

The RB15 did not have these. However, if we're talking about copying, the RB16 copied the W10 by putting them on the RB16 this year. They also copied the Mercedes "cape" solution.

https://files.gpblog.com/news/2020/02/1 ... 357d17.png

Besides, these ears appeared on previous generations of cars. Just like countless other bits that all the teams use.
I think they were describing the design/shape as being closer to Red Bull's version (not copying the idea of the fins from Red Bull).

zibby43
zibby43
440
Joined: Sat Mar 04, 2017 11:16 am

Re: Mercedes W11

Post

e30ernest wrote:
Wed Sep 02, 2020 1:17 am
zibby43 wrote:
Tue Sep 01, 2020 10:56 pm
ispano6 wrote:
Tue Sep 01, 2020 10:21 pm


They do say imitation is the biggest form of flattery right. I wonder how much engineering they had to really do. Probably hired the RP guy who was able to deduce the designs from photos!
Uh, what?

The W10 introduced these ears last year. The chassis ears on the W11 in Spa were just a further refinement of the design they had last year, and carried over to this year's car.

https://i.redd.it/wuccbt7u14j21.jpg

The RB15 did not have these. However, if we're talking about copying, the RB16 copied the W10 by putting them on the RB16 this year. They also copied the Mercedes "cape" solution.

https://files.gpblog.com/news/2020/02/1 ... 357d17.png

Besides, these ears appeared on previous generations of cars. Just like countless other bits that all the teams use.
I think they were describing the design/shape as being closer to Red Bull's version (not copying the idea of the fins from Red Bull).
I was replying to his comment that Merc didn’t engineer them.

e30ernest
e30ernest
12
Joined: Wed Feb 29, 2012 7:47 am

Re: Mercedes W11

Post

zibby43 wrote:
Wed Sep 02, 2020 1:48 am
e30ernest wrote:
Wed Sep 02, 2020 1:17 am
zibby43 wrote:
Tue Sep 01, 2020 10:56 pm


Uh, what?

The W10 introduced these ears last year. The chassis ears on the W11 in Spa were just a further refinement of the design they had last year, and carried over to this year's car.

https://i.redd.it/wuccbt7u14j21.jpg

The RB15 did not have these. However, if we're talking about copying, the RB16 copied the W10 by putting them on the RB16 this year. They also copied the Mercedes "cape" solution.

https://files.gpblog.com/news/2020/02/1 ... 357d17.png

Besides, these ears appeared on previous generations of cars. Just like countless other bits that all the teams use.
I think they were describing the design/shape as being closer to Red Bull's version (not copying the idea of the fins from Red Bull).
I was replying to his comment that Merc didn’t engineer them.
Still early in the morning... I need my coffee.... :mrgreen:

zibby43
zibby43
440
Joined: Sat Mar 04, 2017 11:16 am

Re: Mercedes W11

Post

e30ernest wrote:
Wed Sep 02, 2020 2:18 am
zibby43 wrote:
Wed Sep 02, 2020 1:48 am
e30ernest wrote:
Wed Sep 02, 2020 1:17 am


I think they were describing the design/shape as being closer to Red Bull's version (not copying the idea of the fins from Red Bull).
I was replying to his comment that Merc didn’t engineer them.
Still early in the morning... I need my coffee.... :mrgreen:
Haha all good man! :mrgreen:

ispano6
ispano6
251
Joined: Thu Mar 09, 2017 10:56 pm
Location: my playseat

Re: Mercedes W11

Post

zibby43 wrote:
Tue Sep 01, 2020 10:56 pm
ispano6 wrote:
Tue Sep 01, 2020 10:21 pm
zibby43 wrote:
Tue Sep 01, 2020 10:00 pm


Truly incredible how much engineering/development goes into such visibly tiny parts. And what's even more incredible is how such tiny parts can end up having significant contributions to the overall flow structures as they pass downstream. Thanks for sharing. :D
They do say imitation is the biggest form of flattery right. I wonder how much engineering they had to really do. Probably hired the RP guy who was able to deduce the designs from photos!
Uh, what?

The W10 introduced these ears last year. The chassis ears on the W11 in Spa were just a further refinement of the design they had last year, and carried over to this year's car.

https://i.redd.it/wuccbt7u14j21.jpg

The RB15 did not have these. However, if we're talking about copying, the RB16 copied the W10 by putting them on the RB16 this year. They also copied the Mercedes "cape" solution.

https://files.gpblog.com/news/2020/02/1 ... 357d17.png

Besides, these ears appeared on previous generations of cars. Just like countless other bits that all the teams use.
No Zibby you stand corrected.
RB15 had the contoured BULL HORNS.
SPA 2019 RB15
Image
Brazil 2019 RB15 (notice the STR14 in the background, its not a 2020 photo)
Image
The article clearly states that the bull horn shape of the W11 is now like the RedBull's which they already had last year.

zibby43
zibby43
440
Joined: Sat Mar 04, 2017 11:16 am

Re: Mercedes W11

Post

ispano6 wrote:
Wed Sep 02, 2020 2:29 am
zibby43 wrote:
Tue Sep 01, 2020 10:56 pm
ispano6 wrote:
Tue Sep 01, 2020 10:21 pm


They do say imitation is the biggest form of flattery right. I wonder how much engineering they had to really do. Probably hired the RP guy who was able to deduce the designs from photos!
Uh, what?

The W10 introduced these ears last year. The chassis ears on the W11 in Spa were just a further refinement of the design they had last year, and carried over to this year's car.

https://i.redd.it/wuccbt7u14j21.jpg

The RB15 did not have these. However, if we're talking about copying, the RB16 copied the W10 by putting them on the RB16 this year. They also copied the Mercedes "cape" solution.

https://files.gpblog.com/news/2020/02/1 ... 357d17.png

Besides, these ears appeared on previous generations of cars. Just like countless other bits that all the teams use.
No Zibby you stand corrected.
RB15 had the contoured BULL HORNS.
SPA 2019 RB15
https://cdn-1.motorsport.com/images/amp ... rb15-1.jpg
Brazil 2019 RB15 (notice the STR14 in the background, its not a 2020 photo)
https://www.motorsportweek.com/wp-conte ... 50x500.jpg
The article clearly states that the bull horn shape of the W11 is now like the RedBull's which they already had last year.
The car (RB15) didn’t launch with them.

Thanks for the downvote by the way. I gave you an upvote for your earlier post sharing the drawing (even though we’ve already had several pictures of the ears in earlier pages), and tried to thank you for sharing something in this thread.

And then you respond by making some snide comment about Merc/RP and copying. And now this lol.

W10 SPAIN 2019 (chassis ears):

Image

Image

RB15 SPAIN 2019 (no chassis ears yet):

Image

Red Bull copied the concept of chassis horns, and slightly modified them.

So to claim that Mercedes copied the idea was hilarious to me. Especially when these ears/horns have been around for years.

But yeah, thanks for hitting my initial post with a downvote and saying I was wrong, when Red Bull did not have chassis horns whatsoever all the way up to Spa, whereas the W10 had them for almost the entire season, sans the initial launch spec.

Think it’s really childish how you try to weaponize those downvotes, as opposed to just having a civil discussion, where we could've clarified our positions without being adversarial. I’m done interacting with you on this forum.