2020 Italian Grand Prix - Monza, September 4 - 6

[Big Tea]

Just a little additional to the pit lane incident. Irrespective of the right or wrong of of Hamilton being given a penalty, as it involved people being on the track and a car not obeying the command ( which should have been accompanied by double waved yellow to my mind) there has to be a heavy penalty. It can not be reduced or rescinded.
I half expected disqualification

[SiLo]

VSC would have been absolutely fine to clear KMags car. Lewis seemed to be unlucky as he entered the pits I believe 12 seconds after the pit lane closed. So Merc only had 12 seconds to receive the message, read it, interpret it, and then tell Hamilton not to come in. That's really close.

[El Scorchio]

First off, the sole objective of FIA using SC is safety. Ever since Jules' accident, the safety of drivers and of course, track marshals is of highest priority than the desires of audience watching race. No blaming Masi on that to continue being the torch bearer. Leclerc's crash, most likely damaged the the techpro barriers, that needed repairs, hence Red Flag. It's not simply a beached car. The consequence for FIA is of extreme nature if they don't ensure the safety. A race gone bad for a driver or team, is a small penalty that can be absorbed anyday.

They don't usually stop the race for that, though. They can repair a barrier that's so far off the track under safety car conditions. If it was a barrier right next to or even on the boundary of the track such as Singapore or Baku , or if it's rainy conditions like in Japan with the Bianchi accident then 100% fair enough to stop the race but it should be last resort.

You are right that safety comes first but in my POV it's been a little OTT this season in places, with somewhat convenient side effects. Like I said, Masi stated he was pleased with the spectacle of the Austrian grand prix which was due to a safety car. They might as well just get rid of VSC altogether or at least for this season because there seems to be essentially no situation where it's used any longer. I'm not sure I recall a single one so far this season.

In my opinion everything was done right. Pit lane entry in Monza is extremely fast, and can sometimes happen that drivers are overtaking each other very close to the entry. On other circuits pit lane entry is separate from race track for quite a distance. Only logical point is to call Safety Car. When Leclerc crashed it was again only logical move to red flag race. They need to repair safety barrier and nobody knows how long can it take. What, are they going to drive behind safety car for 20 min?

They aren't overtaking each other under VSC or SC though are they? I don't have a huge issue with SC being used there even if I think VSC arguably would have sufficed, seen as the car was parked on the inside of the track. As soon as it was established the pit lane was shut it should probably have been ok to get the car down there under VSC as no car would go anywhere near that part of the track. In dry conditions that system has worked perfectly well in the past and aside from the covid situation allegedly affecting stewards (and if that's so, they should have clearly said because of that, no VSC) there's nothing new now which should alter that.

Point taken about the Leclerc incident though. You are right about repairs to the barrier. I've probably not considered how big the impact actually was.

[SiLo]

KMAG = VSC, Leclerc = Full Course Safety Car <-- How it should have been. Surprised they didn't just wheel the car back 10 metres into the Marshal post at first, wouldn't have needed to close the pitlane.

[PlatinumZealot]

KMAG = VSC, Leclerc = Full Course Safety Car <-- How it should have been. Surprised they didn't just wheel the car back 10 metres into the Marshal post at first, wouldn't have needed to close the pitlane.

The cars cannot fit there and even if it could it would have blocked the marshals in.

I think the pit lane closed needed to be communicated better. I dont even think those X's were red. They were yellow on my screen. Not to mention their location is not easy to look at. Some big lights on the main straight would have done better. At least the driver would see them when he turned hisbhead towards the Pits.

Haven't spoke on the race overall yet, must say I enjoyed it. It was a lowly attempt by the FIA to spice up the race and close up the championship. the acheived the former but they must be kickong themselves about the latter.

For Redbull, it was all Karma today. Burned up engine for Max and dropped a place in the championship. Embarrassment again for Albon. And they seemed to be most affected by the ban on qualifying modes never mind Gasly winning.

[El Scorchio]

My take- it's so rare the pit lane is closed during a race and it's usually pretty obvious, like there's debris there or a car stuck there. This was a bit unusual and probably flagged there should be a tweak to communication. Hamilton, Merc, Gio and Alfa fell foul of the rules so the penalty is just. You can argue it's unlucky and there was no intention to commit foul play but it is what it is and the rules are the rules!

As for SC vs VSC, my feelings are the same. I believe they are doing it 'for the show' and to artificially mix races up, which is plain wrong. I know there's the argument there are less stewards this season which is convenient although I don't really buy it. I also don't understand why they needed to stop the race yesterday rather than SC which seemed enough of a measure for the Leclerc crash? I think the stoppage and restart was purely for the show as well, and yes it's exciting having a second full start, it was really unfair on a couple of drivers and teams, and destroyed a lot of hard work from some of them.

First off, the sole objective of FIA using SC is safety. Ever since Jules' accident, the safety of drivers and of course, track marshals is of highest priority than the desires of audience watching race. No blaming Masi on that to continue being the torch bearer.

Did u watch F2 race this weekend?
Both the races had 2 Virtual safety cars in feature race and 1 virtual safety car in sprint race when they had on the same track with same marshals and same FIA delegats
https://serving.photos.photobox.com/310 ... a35a9a.jpg
Look at that, a crane on the first corner and they didnt even put a full course safety car, just virtual safety car
But we had a full course safety car and closed pit lane for a car stopping well off the racing line and near a orange barrier

Please dont say that lives of the same marshal's in an F2 race is less valuable and also the F2 driver's lives also dont matter.

This artificial changing of f1 race has been there for long long time
And it is indeed Masi's fault
Last year he let go Leclerc without any penalty, but now this year Albon got penalty for even less
What heppend to the black orange flag? is that taken out only in convenient situations?

Well now THAT is very interesting! Good find and thanks for posting. You are right- why is that all OK in F2 but not F1? Seems to be one rule for some and one rule for others. It's not like you can claim F2 drivers are more experienced and more able to avoid a crane either. You have to ask yourself why.... I think some of us clearly suspect the answer.

[matt_b]

Just a little additional to the pit lane incident. Irrespective of the right or wrong of of Hamilton being given a penalty, as it involved people being on the track and a car not obeying the command ( which should have been accompanied by double waved yellow to my mind) there has to be a heavy penalty. It can not be reduced or rescinded.
I half expected disqualification

They gave Lewis and Giovinazzi the strongest penalty available, of course if it was wet and they only had a few seconds to react I would presume they would've got the same 5 second time penalty Danny Ric got in Brazil 2016 for entering the pit lane when it was closed, we will never know though.

[NathanOlder]

Just a little additional to the pit lane incident. Irrespective of the right or wrong of of Hamilton being given a penalty, as it involved people being on the track and a car not obeying the command ( which should have been accompanied by double waved yellow to my mind) there has to be a heavy penalty. It can not be reduced or rescinded.
I half expected disqualification

They gave Lewis and Giovinazzi the strongest penalty available, of course if it was wet and they only had a few seconds to react I would presume they would've got the same 5 second time penalty Danny Ric got in Brazil 2016 for entering the pit lane when it was closed, we will never know though.

Ha yeah, so the Redbull driver came in with the pit lane closed, got a 5 second time penalty that he served at the next stop. Bit better than the 31 seconds Lewis lost with his penalty.

[cooken]

F2 screenshot

Well this is a shocking condemnation as far as I'm concerned. Blatant hipocrysy on display. Disgusting.


For the red flag I have no issues. They could have repaired it under SC but how many laps would it have taken? Race would've been over by the time they got going again.

[Phil]

I think he was questioning it, because the team would have looked very foolish if there had been a safety car or a virtual safety car on the next lap.

Hence why they wanted to box on the first lap, Hamilton was questioning that move.

ok you made me reply.

Hamilton was in the middle of a race with a lot going on. Hence why his team had to step in and say "trust me".

My 7 year old daughter has enough of an understanding of maths to work out it changes nothing in that scenario if you pit straight away or after a few laps. Why are you struggling so much??

The math is that Lewis's engineer was correct in that pitting on the first lap is quicker than pitting after 3 laps, because the cars get faster with every lap (less fuel) and there's also no DRS within the first 3 laps after the restart. Faster laps equals more time lost in the pits relative to the pack - hence why pitting under VSC or under yellows or safety car is beneficial because the pack is slower relative to their normal pace.

Hence pitting early was the best. Even if Lewis had driven out a 5 second gap, he still would have come out in clean air and dead last regardless.

[Schuttelberg]

I thought the party mode ban would make Mercedes faster? Why was Bottas then complaining about it today? Specially after his cocky jibe yesterday?

Weird. Toto also said they'd be faster in races and a more honest man has never spoken. Weird.

Because by only having one mode in the race, they were running the engine hotter (probably considering been at the front of the grid and not stuck behind a remarkably fast Mclaren)... If they could have had other modes available, they would have probably run the engine a bit cooler, keep their distance to Norris and once temperatures dropped, go back to a hotter mode to try and make the pass.

Bottas was complaining about the car from start of the race, his comments about the engine mode were probably just a part of his overall frustration after losing positions on the start and how difficult it was to follow other cars.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

My post was sarcastic. Bottas lacks talent. The car is just fine. Punctures, race suit colours, engine modes, the list of excuses is endless. What's worse is how 'cool' he pretends to be in interviews and if he was half as punchy in the cockpit as he is in front of a microphone, he wouldn't be getting caned so badly. People will now bring up the 8 odd races he's won and the 14-15 odd poles but it's convenient to forget how many his team mate has. He was just about better than Massa who was not the same driver after his accident. Pretty easily, I would say the worst F1 driver I have seen.

[enri_the_red]

They gave Lewis and Giovinazzi the strongest penalty available, of course if it was wet and they only had a few seconds to react I would presume they would've got the same 5 second time penalty Danny Ric got in Brazil 2016 for entering the pit lane when it was closed, we will never know though.

Entering a closed pitlane carries a predefined 10 seconds stop&go penalty. In 2016 Ricciardo got just a 5 second penalty because at the time there wasn't a fix penalty, it was added in 2017.

[notsofast]

https://serving.photos.photobox.com/310 ... a35a9a.jpg

I find that picture very scary. Cars going at 70% of top speed while there are marshals and heavy equipment inside turn 2.

[Phil]

Just to point out the obvious:
The problem with Mercedes this race was that it wasn't set up to be in traffic. In Monza the DRS is least effective because they already have the smallest wings with the least amount of drag, hence the difference between least amount of drag and DRS open is the smallest. Adding to that, the Mercedes have been the cars with the lowest top speed all weekend which again is testament to how they set up the car - that being, front row lockout and driving off into the distance and not for the eventuality of being stuck behind traffic.

Bottas was unfortunate - he lost out at the start (totally on him with his reaction time) and then got stuck behind cars that were racing that were set up for a higher top speed on the straights. Which makes overtaking pretty difficult.

Yes, Hamilton was able to overtake many cars, but he also overtook more slower cars relative to Bottas who was in the midst of more competitive cars. He also was stuck behind traffic longer, which meant his car was also overheating and he was under constant pressure from Max most of the time.

Hamilton was very fortunate to make it into the points, because he was able to pressure Albon into a mistake. If that had not happened and Albon had driven flawless, I don't think Hamilton would have made it into the points.


Some thoughts on the safety car;
If Hamilton/Mercedes had pitted correctly under the safety car, I wonder if he'd still have been at a distinct disadvantage. Where exactly is the Mercedes garage on the pit straight? Far end or relative close to the beginning? AFAIK (might be wrong though), they are relatively early on the pit straight. Imagine following the safety car for 4 laps, the whole pack bunched up and then the pit lane opening and everyone going in, Hamilton right ahead. He goes in changes tires and then has to wait for everyone else entering the pits. Surely this probably would have been a lottery and I doubt he'd be the first car out again?

Not saying it was the right thing to pit - evidently, a stop/go 10 second penalty is the worst outcome for his race. I'm just saying that with the way the dice had fallen with that safety car, I'm not convinced Hamilton was destined to win given the situation with the closed pit lane entry and that he likely would have lost a few position to circumstance of everyone coming into the pits at the same time.

[DChemTech]

I normally don't post on race threads but here goes ...

Hulkenberg has a car failure of some description, I really don't care what it was only that he had it. He does the decent thing by moving offline and crawling around the track for a section of barrier marked in orange paint. This indicates that there is an area with marshals that can move the car off track safely. Except in this case, the marshals have some sort of tent and table there so the area is completely useless.

So instead of clearing that out of the way and pulling the car back, the marshals and race organisers go "hey, the pit lane isn't far from here. push it there!" and they do. This instigates a full safety car (!) and a very rarely seen message to close the pit lane during this process.

In fact it's so rarely seen, that the message clarifying the situation is not immediately visible. It's instead on page 4 (!) of the timing sheets and in Mercedes case, only one person back at Brackley HQ spots it. By the time that's communicated back to pitlane, Hamilton has made an illegal pitstop. Wow.

Now we get to the track stuff. There's red lights on the left hand side of the track. Problem is it's a right hand corner and the drivers are understandably looking right so they miss it unless told by the team. Turns out there's a board being waved by the marshals prior to all this ... but it says "SC" with zero indication that the pitlane is closed.

The team on the pitwall get a strange SC X X type sign they've never seen before. As Diesel has stated in previous posts, there's no real explanation what this is or standardisation of this message according to the rules. Thus momentary confusion reigns.

So with all of this in mind, while Mercedes and Alfa Romeo did make a mistake and break the rules it wasn't exactly bloody easy to avoid? Chaos reigned supreme at this point!

I have enough blame for the marshals, the FIA and the teams to go round on this.

As for the rest of the race? What race? Stayed precessional after the restart with the exceptions of Raikonnen going backwards and Hamilton driving like a man possessed. Again. And we had Sky F1 commentator calling for reverse grid races for qualifying on the basis of this? Well I didn't have much respect for Crofty but he's just entered the Christian Horner gobshite arena now. Brundle managed to point "some" of this out but also got suckered by the reverse grid concept. Well, reverse grids work in spec series but F1 is NOT a spec series! This is the same knee jerk reaction to Canada 2011 that got us these shitty bubblegum consistency tyres.

For me this is just a new low. We've had mistake compounded on mistake here and it's provided some excitement but basically disguised an utterly dull race.

I strongly disagree with your assessment on reversed grids. They only make sense in non-spec series such as F1.
Reverse grids do not work in a spec series. In a spec series, all cars are the same, and distinction should be on talent of the driver (and crew for immediate setup). The best crew deserves to be in front, working with a reversed grid in that case is bollocks because it penalizes drivers for being good drivers in the prior race.

Reversed grids do have some merit to make racing more exciting if there is an obvious best car. In that case, they do not penalize a driver for being the best driver, they force the driver to show that he can put down a good drive even if the favorable condition (of being in a good car) is to some degree negated (by starting further back). Whether you want to see that or not is another question, but it only makes sense to use such a tool of desperation in a series like F1 where there are significant differences between cars.