Red Bull RB16

A place to discuss the characteristics of the cars in Formula One, both current as well as historical. Laptimes, driver worshipping and team chatter does not belong here.
kalinka
kalinka
9
Joined: Thu Feb 18, 2010 11:01 pm
Location: Hungary

Re: Red Bull RB16

Post

godlameroso wrote:
Tue Sep 15, 2020 12:29 am
zibby43 wrote:
Mon Sep 14, 2020 9:14 pm
Another floor comparison.

This was a pretty significant upgrade. Will have definitely helped reduce turbulence from the rear tire area, which can have negative effects on diffuser performance (as the rear tire literally shoots air sideways toward the diffuser as it deforms).

https://cdn-6.motorsport.com/images/mgl ... -com-1.jpg

via @SomersF1
The tire tubulence has a dead zone right where the floor is aiming air at. By pushing airmass to the deadzone, the pressure is increased, and as air likes to go to the area of lowest pressure so it can be full of itself, it'll go to the inside of the tire because the diffuser is low pressure. The tapered front wings do the same thing, aim more air mass at the tire deadzone. The vortex tunnels of the 2014-2018 wings did this very well.

One thing I still don't understand is how brake ducts themselves give an aero advantage, or is Mercedes brake ducts more to control tire temperature? If Mercedes brake ducts are letting them get the tires in exactly the right window it would explain the gaps in qualifying vs race pace. Tires being in and out of the window is easily worth over half a second. Over a race stint tires will reach a temperature equilibrium vs qualifying where you're driving slowly on your out lap to prepare the tire.
Wouldn't those slots in the floor decrease pressure before the air hits the dead zone by spilling some of it under the floor? Also, why would be a lot of small slots a significant upgrade compared to the old version? If that's so obvious why they didn't come up with it in a first place? I'm no expert at all , just want to know how it works.

User avatar
ME4ME
173
Joined: Fri Dec 19, 2014 3:37 pm

Re: Red Bull RB16

Post

godlameroso wrote:
Mon Sep 14, 2020 7:15 pm
This team is the king of iterative design. Every race they reprofile so many aero surfaces. It looks like the car is the same, or reverts to older parts, but if you pay attention you see how many subtle changes they make every single race.

Sochi will be a big test to see if they're getting on top of the car, some of the updates and test parts show promising results.
To be fair half of the upgrade this year haven't worked. I wouldn't say Red Bull Honda is king of anything right now other than pit stops which they are amazing at.

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godlameroso
411
Joined: Sat Jan 16, 2010 8:27 pm
Location: Miami FL

Re: Red Bull RB16

Post

kalinka wrote:
Tue Sep 15, 2020 7:56 am
godlameroso wrote:
Tue Sep 15, 2020 12:29 am
zibby43 wrote:
Mon Sep 14, 2020 9:14 pm
Another floor comparison.

This was a pretty significant upgrade. Will have definitely helped reduce turbulence from the rear tire area, which can have negative effects on diffuser performance (as the rear tire literally shoots air sideways toward the diffuser as it deforms).

https://cdn-6.motorsport.com/images/mgl ... -com-1.jpg

via @SomersF1
The tire tubulence has a dead zone right where the floor is aiming air at. By pushing airmass to the deadzone, the pressure is increased, and as air likes to go to the area of lowest pressure so it can be full of itself, it'll go to the inside of the tire because the diffuser is low pressure. The tapered front wings do the same thing, aim more air mass at the tire deadzone. The vortex tunnels of the 2014-2018 wings did this very well.

One thing I still don't understand is how brake ducts themselves give an aero advantage, or is Mercedes brake ducts more to control tire temperature? If Mercedes brake ducts are letting them get the tires in exactly the right window it would explain the gaps in qualifying vs race pace. Tires being in and out of the window is easily worth over half a second. Over a race stint tires will reach a temperature equilibrium vs qualifying where you're driving slowly on your out lap to prepare the tire.
Wouldn't those slots in the floor decrease pressure before the air hits the dead zone by spilling some of it under the floor? Also, why would be a lot of small slots a significant upgrade compared to the old version? If that's so obvious why they didn't come up with it in a first place? I'm no expert at all , just want to know how it works.
The old version didn't channel as much airflow to the region of interest. This one is a more brute force approach. As the pressure under the floor increases as air goes across the slots and smacks the tire, the rest of the air traveling along the floor says 'hell to the na, I ain't going that way, I'm going towards the diffuser where the underfloor pressure is lower.
The height of cultivation is really nothing special. It is merely simplicity; the ability to express the utmost with the minimum. Mr.Lee

User avatar
godlameroso
411
Joined: Sat Jan 16, 2010 8:27 pm
Location: Miami FL

Re: Red Bull RB16

Post

ME4ME wrote:
Tue Sep 15, 2020 12:58 pm
godlameroso wrote:
Mon Sep 14, 2020 7:15 pm
This team is the king of iterative design. Every race they reprofile so many aero surfaces. It looks like the car is the same, or reverts to older parts, but if you pay attention you see how many subtle changes they make every single race.

Sochi will be a big test to see if they're getting on top of the car, some of the updates and test parts show promising results.
To be fair half of the upgrade this year haven't worked. I wouldn't say Red Bull Honda is king of anything right now other than pit stops which they are amazing at.
Some did, some didn't, and not all of it was in vain. There are more wrong answers than right ones. So it's easier to get things wrong, than right, statistically speaking. The important part is they're figuring things out. Sochi will be a very important test, as Mercedes has always been very strong there. A lot of important corners are in a speed range the car has not liked all year. So if RB does well there, we'll know they're on the right track.
The height of cultivation is really nothing special. It is merely simplicity; the ability to express the utmost with the minimum. Mr.Lee

nzjrs
nzjrs
81
Joined: Wed Jan 07, 2015 10:21 am
Location: Austria

Re: Red Bull RB16

Post

godlameroso wrote:
Tue Sep 15, 2020 2:01 pm
ME4ME wrote:
Tue Sep 15, 2020 12:58 pm
godlameroso wrote:
Mon Sep 14, 2020 7:15 pm
This team is the king of iterative design. Every race they reprofile so many aero surfaces. It looks like the car is the same, or reverts to older parts, but if you pay attention you see how many subtle changes they make every single race.

Sochi will be a big test to see if they're getting on top of the car, some of the updates and test parts show promising results.
To be fair half of the upgrade this year haven't worked. I wouldn't say Red Bull Honda is king of anything right now other than pit stops which they are amazing at.
Some did, some didn't, and not all of it was in vain. There are more wrong answers than right ones. So it's easier to get things wrong, than right, statistically speaking. The important part is they're figuring things out. Sochi will be a very important test, as Mercedes has always been very strong there. A lot of important corners are in a speed range the car has not liked all year. So if RB does well there, we'll know they're on the right track.
What's your guess on how Albon might go here vs Verstappen - does Sochi have more of the types of corners that Albon struggles with more than Max (at the current state of the RB16)?

User avatar
godlameroso
411
Joined: Sat Jan 16, 2010 8:27 pm
Location: Miami FL

Re: Red Bull RB16

Post

nzjrs wrote:
Tue Sep 15, 2020 2:06 pm
godlameroso wrote:
Tue Sep 15, 2020 2:01 pm
ME4ME wrote:
Tue Sep 15, 2020 12:58 pm

To be fair half of the upgrade this year haven't worked. I wouldn't say Red Bull Honda is king of anything right now other than pit stops which they are amazing at.
Some did, some didn't, and not all of it was in vain. There are more wrong answers than right ones. So it's easier to get things wrong, than right, statistically speaking. The important part is they're figuring things out. Sochi will be a very important test, as Mercedes has always been very strong there. A lot of important corners are in a speed range the car has not liked all year. So if RB does well there, we'll know they're on the right track.
What's your guess on how Albon might go here vs Verstappen - does Sochi have more of the types of corners that Albon struggles with more than Max (at the current state of the RB16)?
The car itself struggles in these corners, or did, so the gap between Verstappen and Albon would be greater here. Of course the team has made some inroads to improving car behavior at that speed range so we'll see. If they can get the ultimate lap time down in the 1:31.7ish then we'll know they have improved things. That would put them at a similar gap to the last race.

How they'll fare in the race itself, hard to say, Mercedes already had astronomical pace last year around here. 38's and 37's. Easily half a second faster than the RB15 was, so I'm not expecting them to just beat Mercedes, but if the gap is similar to last round I will be very pleased. Imola and Portimao should suit the car as Mugello did.
The height of cultivation is really nothing special. It is merely simplicity; the ability to express the utmost with the minimum. Mr.Lee

kalinka
kalinka
9
Joined: Thu Feb 18, 2010 11:01 pm
Location: Hungary

Re: Red Bull RB16

Post

godlameroso wrote:
Tue Sep 15, 2020 1:57 pm
kalinka wrote:
Tue Sep 15, 2020 7:56 am
godlameroso wrote:
Tue Sep 15, 2020 12:29 am


The tire tubulence has a dead zone right where the floor is aiming air at. By pushing airmass to the deadzone, the pressure is increased, and as air likes to go to the area of lowest pressure so it can be full of itself, it'll go to the inside of the tire because the diffuser is low pressure. The tapered front wings do the same thing, aim more air mass at the tire deadzone. The vortex tunnels of the 2014-2018 wings did this very well.

One thing I still don't understand is how brake ducts themselves give an aero advantage, or is Mercedes brake ducts more to control tire temperature? If Mercedes brake ducts are letting them get the tires in exactly the right window it would explain the gaps in qualifying vs race pace. Tires being in and out of the window is easily worth over half a second. Over a race stint tires will reach a temperature equilibrium vs qualifying where you're driving slowly on your out lap to prepare the tire.
Wouldn't those slots in the floor decrease pressure before the air hits the dead zone by spilling some of it under the floor? Also, why would be a lot of small slots a significant upgrade compared to the old version? If that's so obvious why they didn't come up with it in a first place? I'm no expert at all , just want to know how it works.
The old version didn't channel as much airflow to the region of interest. This one is a more brute force approach. As the pressure under the floor increases as air goes across the slots and smacks the tire, the rest of the air traveling along the floor says 'hell to the na, I ain't going that way, I'm going towards the diffuser where the underfloor pressure is lower.
This makes sense. Thanks. I've faIled to think dinamically about those slots :)