2020 Turkish Grand Prix - Instanbul Park, Nov 13 - 15

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Scorpaguy
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Re: 2020 Turkish Grand Prix - Instanbul Park, Nov 13 - 15

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...no Ham fanboy here, but I have a hard time figuring out why Ham was not the "Driver of the Day". Drove a pretty flawless race in conditions that befitted no car. I am not sure anyone would have predicted his victory prior to the last third of the race. I thought it a performance (from his team as well) of a champion.

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Sieper
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Re: 2020 Turkish Grand Prix - Instanbul Park, Nov 13 - 15

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Moore77 wrote:
Wed Nov 18, 2020 4:41 pm
It appears that, Max wasn't willing to wait for the race to come to him and wanted to force it to come to him, after having a bad start. Whereas Lewis, was just trying to go through the motion and I don't think, in the early part of the race, it would have crossed his mind that he can win. He most likely simply wanted to complete the race and bring home valuable points and win the championship and in that process, he found better rhythm. A similar process was adopted by Vettel and netted a podium. That's youth and experience. They all have driven so many wet races and yet, there is so much of impatience to not see out the whole race before forcing the matters.
When would it have come to him though? Stroll was out in front increasing the lead while RP would have never pitted Perez away out in front of Max. It would require an overtake to win.

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NathanOlder
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Re: 2020 Turkish Grand Prix - Instanbul Park, Nov 13 - 15

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I think it was just a case of backing off in turn 11. And being more patient like people have been saying. Its like he was surprised being so close to the car in front caused him to understeer in a high speed corner (even in the wet)
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PlatinumZealot
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Re: 2020 Turkish Grand Prix - Instanbul Park, Nov 13 - 15

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Yeah, he had so much more grip at that point, it would have been an easy pass if he had only just been patient.
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Mogster
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Re: 2020 Turkish Grand Prix - Instanbul Park, Nov 13 - 15

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Schuttelberg wrote:
Wed Nov 18, 2020 12:09 pm
You got to love the people dissing Max and then the same people glorifying Lewis. Lewis himself made an error on lap 1 and while he drove an outstanding race, he did have the car underneath him to win once in clear air. These theories on how Max and Charles are "error prone" and Lewis is some god just annoys the daylights out of me. Max should have won here, Lewis should have won the first Austrian race. These guys are racers and not chartered accountants who get hours to make decisions. Both have been outstanding this season and both are aided by the fact that their team mates are nowhere.
As I posted earlier Lewis has had 1 DNF since 2016. He now has a run of 47 consecutive races with a points finish...

I realise that Merc’s reliability plays a big part but I still find that stat mind bending. Max and Chaz are still young, earlier in his career Lewis was also still making mistakes. Since 2016 Lewis has become a machine.

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ringo
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Re: 2020 Turkish Grand Prix - Instanbul Park, Nov 13 - 15

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And if we look at both errors. One was simply at the starting getting familiar with the grip; no emotions involved.
The error by Max, he knew the grip, was impatient and was simply trying too hard and made a mess. Those are two very different errors. I also notice that for the redbull cars over the years the drivers tend to lean on the car a lot to make things work out. I was looking on Max trying to pass Perez, and it was as if he didn't care about being in turbulence and low down force behind the racing point, didn't care about the low grip, he was just leaning on the fact he is in a redbull and will barge his way through. Both Vettel and Riciardo were like this as the redbull cars a very good in dirty air and on braking. When Ricciardo came to renault he could barely drive it, and he no longer could do his late braking dive bombs. The redbull doesn't require the same level of sensitive feel as the other cars.
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Sieper
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Re: 2020 Turkish Grand Prix - Instanbul Park, Nov 13 - 15

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ringo wrote:
Wed Nov 18, 2020 6:08 pm
And if we look at both errors. One was simply at the starting getting familiar with the grip; no emotions involved.
The error by Max, he knew the grip, was impatient and was simply trying too hard and made a mess. Those are two very different errors. I also notice that for the redbull cars over the years the drivers tend to lean on the car a lot to make things work out. I was looking on Max trying to pass Perez, and it was as if he didn't care about being in turbulence and low down force behind the racing point, didn't care about the low grip, he was just leaning on the fact he is in a redbull and will barge his way through. Both Vettel and Riciardo were like this as the redbull cars a very good in dirty air and on braking. When Ricciardo came to renault he could barely drive it, and he no longer could do his late braking dive bombs. The redbull doesn't require the same level of sensitive feel as the other cars.
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Schuttelberg
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Re: 2020 Turkish Grand Prix - Instanbul Park, Nov 13 - 15

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e30ernest wrote:
Wed Nov 18, 2020 12:30 pm
Schuttelberg wrote:
Wed Nov 18, 2020 12:09 pm
You got to love the people dissing Max and then the same people glorifying Lewis. Lewis himself made an error on lap 1 and while he drove an outstanding race, he did have the car underneath him to win once in clear air. These theories on how Max and Charles are "error prone" and Lewis is some god just annoys the daylights out of me. Max should have won here, Lewis should have won the first Austrian race. These guys are racers and not chartered accountants who get hours to make decisions. Both have been outstanding this season and both are aided by the fact that their team mates are nowhere.
You are right, Max should have won this race. His errors though (mostly impatience IMO) was what caused his issues. Lewis did indeed get an error in lap 1, but he kept his head and as Jolyon said, bided his time. This is where his experience shows IMO.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying one was better than the other in totality. However, in this race Lewis was was indeed better than Max.
I agree. But, Max was also driving a car with a front wing at weird angles.

I defended Lewis here when some people just find a reason to criticise him and for some reason the two current Ferrari drivers, Lewis and Max get a lot of unnecessary mud put on them.
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Schuttelberg
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Re: 2020 Turkish Grand Prix - Instanbul Park, Nov 13 - 15

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dans79 wrote:
Wed Nov 18, 2020 3:29 pm
Schuttelberg wrote:
Wed Nov 18, 2020 12:09 pm
These theories on how Max and Charles are "error prone" and Lewis is some god just annoys the daylights out of me. Max should have won here, Lewis should have won the first Austrian race.
I don't know about charles, but Max is for sure is still prone to unnecessary and costly mistakes. He should have won the race, but again showed he still can't control his emotions/frustration at key moments. He should have won the race, but he a costly and foreseeable mistake.
I don't remember Max making one other error all season that cost him a race result. Hamilton should have won the first race but ran into Albon. It is just a question of perception. Lewis himself was dished out a load of nonsense in his McLaren years from fans. It'll be hilarious to see some posts from back then and I tell you what you will find- It's the same people who were criticising Lewis, then Seb, now Max/Charles. It's just fashion. Some people just find joy in criticising people than appreciating genius. I find these four drivers geniuses in their own ways.
"Sebastian there's very, you're a member of a very select few.. Stewart, Lauda, Piquet, Senna, Prost, Schumacher, Fangio.. VETTEL!"

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Schuttelberg
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Re: 2020 Turkish Grand Prix - Instanbul Park, Nov 13 - 15

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PlatinumZealot wrote:
Wed Nov 18, 2020 3:42 pm
Schuttelberg wrote:
Wed Nov 18, 2020 12:09 pm
You got to love the people dissing Max and then the same people glorifying Lewis. Lewis himself made an error on lap 1 and while he drove an outstanding race, he did have the car underneath him to win once in clear air. These theories on how Max and Charles are "error prone" and Lewis is some god just annoys the daylights out of me. Max should have won here, Lewis should have won the first Austrian race. These guys are racers and not chartered accountants who get hours to make decisions. Both have been outstanding this season and both are aided by the fact that their team mates are nowhere.
He slightly ran wide on lap 1. It's wet, gotta test the grip somehow. Not sure I would call that something significant.

Max, on the other hand, seemed to be proving a point, but made a mess of race when he had everything to win. Reminded me of Lewis in 2011.
Lewis in 2011. :lol:

Lewis in 2011 was simply a guy trying to get the max out when he knew the car wasn't enough. It happens you know? What would you say about Lewis running into Alex in the first race this year?

It's amazing how often I find myself repeating the fact that racing drivers are not accountants or policy makers for governments with the luxury of making decisions over prolonged periods of time. Sportsmen have split seconds. It's humans, not robots.

I'd dare to say Lewis has become a better driver at race management i.e fuel, tyres etc. But, the racing side of it has always been the same. He will go for a gap if he sees one and his 'biding his time' or 'conservative' approach in some situations in the past years is enabled by the fact that he knows he can come back and fight back because the car and team give him the margin to do so.
"Sebastian there's very, you're a member of a very select few.. Stewart, Lauda, Piquet, Senna, Prost, Schumacher, Fangio.. VETTEL!"

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Schuttelberg
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Re: 2020 Turkish Grand Prix - Instanbul Park, Nov 13 - 15

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Mogster wrote:
Wed Nov 18, 2020 6:04 pm
Schuttelberg wrote:
Wed Nov 18, 2020 12:09 pm
You got to love the people dissing Max and then the same people glorifying Lewis. Lewis himself made an error on lap 1 and while he drove an outstanding race, he did have the car underneath him to win once in clear air. These theories on how Max and Charles are "error prone" and Lewis is some god just annoys the daylights out of me. Max should have won here, Lewis should have won the first Austrian race. These guys are racers and not chartered accountants who get hours to make decisions. Both have been outstanding this season and both are aided by the fact that their team mates are nowhere.
As I posted earlier Lewis has had 1 DNF since 2016. He now has a run of 47 consecutive races with a points finish...

I realise that Merc’s reliability plays a big part but I still find that stat mind bending. Max and Chaz are still young, earlier in his career Lewis was also still making mistakes. Since 2016 Lewis has become a machine.
You should see Schumacher from 2000-04. I am a Schumacher fan and good lord it was boring sometimes. He went from being a machine to being called 'over the hill' in 2005.

Fact is, he always had margins to be conservative in that five year period and in '05 he found himself creating those margins. It's the same with Lewis. He was always chasing the bull's tail (no pun intended) from 2010-13 which is why there were more errors if I can call them errors.
"Sebastian there's very, you're a member of a very select few.. Stewart, Lauda, Piquet, Senna, Prost, Schumacher, Fangio.. VETTEL!"

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Moore77
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Re: 2020 Turkish Grand Prix - Instanbul Park, Nov 13 - 15

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Max must be feeling like the way Hamilton felt from 2009 to 2013. Knowing he is probably the fastest guy on the grid with all the required talent, but not having the right machinery to compete for championship. That pressure of overdriving and the frustration of always falling short, not him being the reason for it mostly. If Hamilton signs for another few years with Mercedes, it's difficult to imagine how long will Max maintain sanity of his situation.
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Schuttelberg
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Re: 2020 Turkish Grand Prix - Instanbul Park, Nov 13 - 15

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To cap those four posts off- Not everyone can be as talented as Bottas lads. I mean, there is always a reason for his errors. It is never him.

26 years of watching this sport and never seen a driver with a worse attitude. I no longer even care he's in the second seat. For a legend like Mercedes, to see him represent the brand just crushes me. Specially with the talent and the pure characters in F1 at the moment. Can't even imagine him in a Ferrari. It would end my love for the brand.

All those saying Bottas spun the first time avoiding Ocon is the biggest load of BS I have heard. Watch his on board, he carries way too much speed, realises it too late, locks up all on his own and spins. No one touched him.

Then he ran into Ocon again on the same lap. Lord knows how many times he spun? 8?
"Sebastian there's very, you're a member of a very select few.. Stewart, Lauda, Piquet, Senna, Prost, Schumacher, Fangio.. VETTEL!"

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dans79
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Re: 2020 Turkish Grand Prix - Instanbul Park, Nov 13 - 15

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Moore77 wrote:
Wed Nov 18, 2020 6:56 pm
Knowing he is probably the fastest guy on the grid with all the required talent, but not having the right machinery to compete for championship.
I think he is 3rd best behind Hamilton and Vettel, and next year he might be forth best depending how much mojo Alonso has left!
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Moore77
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Re: 2020 Turkish Grand Prix - Instanbul Park, Nov 13 - 15

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dans79 wrote:
Wed Nov 18, 2020 7:26 pm
Moore77 wrote:
Wed Nov 18, 2020 6:56 pm
Knowing he is probably the fastest guy on the grid with all the required talent, but not having the right machinery to compete for championship.
I think he is 3rd best behind Hamilton and Vettel, and next year he might be forth best depending how much mojo Alonso has left!
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