2021 Monaco Grand Prix - Monte Carlo, May 20 - 23

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siskue2005
siskue2005
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Re: 2021 Monaco Grand Prix - Monte Carlo, May 20 - 23

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sosic2121 wrote:
Fri May 28, 2021 6:46 pm
Just_a_fan wrote:
Thu May 27, 2021 8:49 pm
SirBastianVettel wrote:
Thu May 27, 2021 6:49 pm


This was indeed very interesting and a big surprise considering we saw the opposite in all previous races, I’m surprised this isn’t talked about more.

If Ref Bull manages to preserve its tires better in Baku they might have a chance against Mercedes in the race, because with that long straight they don’t have a fighting chance against them otherwise.
Er, you have seen the whole rear wing debacle haven't you? Red Bull's rear wing might give them the ability to run plenty of wing and have a high top speed. In that case, Red Bull will be at the front.
That wing is so mighty! Merc's only chance might be to bring back that Spa '17 engine.
Atleast that engine was legal :roll:

sosic2121
sosic2121
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Joined: Wed Jun 08, 2016 11:14 am

Re: 2021 Monaco Grand Prix - Monte Carlo, May 20 - 23

Post

siskue2005 wrote:
Fri May 28, 2021 8:16 pm
sosic2121 wrote:
Fri May 28, 2021 6:46 pm
Just_a_fan wrote:
Thu May 27, 2021 8:49 pm


Er, you have seen the whole rear wing debacle haven't you? Red Bull's rear wing might give them the ability to run plenty of wing and have a high top speed. In that case, Red Bull will be at the front.
That wing is so mighty! Merc's only chance might be to bring back that Spa '17 engine.
Atleast that engine was legal :roll:
As legal as wing is.
Can RB continue using this exact wing for the rest of the year?

Xwang
Xwang
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Re: 2021 Monaco Grand Prix - Monte Carlo, May 20 - 23

Post

I've just read this:
https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/how- ... g/6516768/
As far as I know the teams are obliged to return all the tires before leaving a track in order to avoid them doing bench tests to better understand the behaviour of the tires.
Is it correct?
If it is so, I wonder if someone from the FIA has verified that the team has not tested the tire on the dyno before returning it to Pirelli.
On FIA's site there is no official document about this matter.
I'm still learning English so please excuse me if my English is not good enough and feel free to correct me via PM if you want.

siskue2005
siskue2005
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Re: 2021 Monaco Grand Prix - Monte Carlo, May 20 - 23

Post

sosic2121 wrote:
Fri May 28, 2021 10:55 pm
siskue2005 wrote:
Fri May 28, 2021 8:16 pm
sosic2121 wrote:
Fri May 28, 2021 6:46 pm

That wing is so mighty! Merc's only chance might be to bring back that Spa '17 engine.
Atleast that engine was legal :roll:
As legal as wing is.
Can RB continue using this exact wing for the rest of the year?
No, the wing is still illegal as per rules, no body part is allowed to flex even when it passes the deflection test. Movable aero is always illegal

sosic2121
sosic2121
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Re: 2021 Monaco Grand Prix - Monte Carlo, May 20 - 23

Post

siskue2005 wrote:
Mon May 31, 2021 12:55 am
sosic2121 wrote:
Fri May 28, 2021 10:55 pm
siskue2005 wrote:
Fri May 28, 2021 8:16 pm

Atleast that engine was legal :roll:
As legal as wing is.
Can RB continue using this exact wing for the rest of the year?
No, the wing is still illegal as per rules, no body part is allowed to flex even when it passes the deflection test. Movable aero is always illegal
And no engine is allowed to use oil as fuel. Only difference is that wing obeys same rule as any other wing on the grid, while we can't say the same for the engine.

siskue2005
siskue2005
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Joined: Fri May 11, 2007 8:50 pm

Re: 2021 Monaco Grand Prix - Monte Carlo, May 20 - 23

Post

sosic2121 wrote:
Mon May 31, 2021 8:12 am
siskue2005 wrote:
Mon May 31, 2021 12:55 am
sosic2121 wrote:
Fri May 28, 2021 10:55 pm

As legal as wing is.
Can RB continue using this exact wing for the rest of the year?
No, the wing is still illegal as per rules, no body part is allowed to flex even when it passes the deflection test. Movable aero is always illegal
And no engine is allowed to use oil as fuel. Only difference is that wing obeys same rule as any other wing on the grid, while we can't say the same for the engine.
The fia allowed certain level of fuel to be burned and merc cpuld use 1 lit instead of 0.7 lit the following race and they took it the new engine (cheeky but completely leagl and allowed by the rules)..and they was nothing illegal about it in merc engine... there were no secret oil tanks found in merc (was seen in ferrari). It was other grand who were affected by these changes and merc were still the best in the field even after the rule change the following year.
Did
We can keep going in circles!
But the fact remains that everyone can see how the red bull wing flexes in those videos. And there are rules set everywhere in f1 history about movable aero, and fia has been perfectly clear before how its illegal, from mass damper to flex wings over the last 3 decades.
You cannot sugar coat it as its illegal.
Anyways I am stopping this off topic and stupid discussion now. Bye

e30ernest
e30ernest
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Re: 2021 Monaco Grand Prix - Monte Carlo, May 20 - 23

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Edit: Sorry wrong thread... I haven't had my coffee.
Last edited by e30ernest on Tue Jun 01, 2021 4:04 am, edited 2 times in total.

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PlatinumZealot
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Joined: Thu Jun 12, 2008 2:45 am

Re: 2021 Monaco Grand Prix - Monte Carlo, May 20 - 23

Post

siskue2005 wrote:
Mon May 31, 2021 12:55 am
sosic2121 wrote:
Fri May 28, 2021 10:55 pm
siskue2005 wrote:
Fri May 28, 2021 8:16 pm

Atleast that engine was legal :roll:
As legal as wing is.
Can RB continue using this exact wing for the rest of the year?
No, the wing is still illegal as per rules, no body part is allowed to flex even when it passes the deflection test. Movable aero is always illegal
Nope.

The wing is legal as long as it passes the FIA tests. Flexing is inevitable so It's about limitng the flexing enough to pass the tests. Read the recent article by Ross Brawn on this. Very good insight.
... . almost. there . sTiLl.. WE...RisE. ..

🚀 🏎️ ✊ Soon my people ✊🏎️🚀

siskue2005
siskue2005
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Joined: Fri May 11, 2007 8:50 pm

Re: 2021 Monaco Grand Prix - Monte Carlo, May 20 - 23

Post

PlatinumZealot wrote:
Tue Jun 01, 2021 3:32 am
siskue2005 wrote:
Mon May 31, 2021 12:55 am
sosic2121 wrote:
Fri May 28, 2021 10:55 pm

As legal as wing is.
Can RB continue using this exact wing for the rest of the year?
No, the wing is still illegal as per rules, no body part is allowed to flex even when it passes the deflection test. Movable aero is always illegal
Nope.

The wing is legal as long as it passes the FIA tests. Flexing is inevitable so It's about limitng the flexing enough to pass the tests. Read the recent article by Ross Brawn on this. Very good insight.
They pass the test yes
But there is also a rule stating that there shouldn't be any flexing even when the car is moving and they should comply with that all the time. So it is indeed illegal to contravene a rule.

It's like fuel flow measurement, you cannot go above the allowed value when the sensor is not reading it.

politburo
politburo
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Re: 2021 Monaco Grand Prix - Monte Carlo, May 20 - 23

Post

siskue2005 wrote:
Tue Jun 01, 2021 10:14 am
PlatinumZealot wrote:
Tue Jun 01, 2021 3:32 am
siskue2005 wrote:
Mon May 31, 2021 12:55 am

No, the wing is still illegal as per rules, no body part is allowed to flex even when it passes the deflection test. Movable aero is always illegal
Nope.

The wing is legal as long as it passes the FIA tests. Flexing is inevitable so It's about limitng the flexing enough to pass the tests. Read the recent article by Ross Brawn on this. Very good insight.
They pass the test yes
But there is also a rule stating that there shouldn't be any flexing even when the car is moving and they should comply with that all the time. So it is indeed illegal to contravene a rule.

It's like fuel flow measurement, you cannot go above the allowed value when the sensor is not reading it.
It is physically impossible that a mounted component, such as the front or rear wing will not flex. The spirit of the rule is that the wing need not have excessive flexing not that it be completely rigid. Given the forces these F1 cars encounter, that'd be quite expensive to find a light enough material such that it not flex at all and not add unnecessary weight to the car.

Thus, the whole reason why they have tolerances with the test (even the new one) is that even the FIA knows the wing cannot be infinitely rigid so as to not vibrate or rotate backward on the straights due to the high-velocity airflow or be pushed downwards in corners by the car's downforce. It is literally physically impossible in our current universe for there to be no flex, if the airflow does any mechanical work on the wing it will deform. But the question is "by how much will it flex?" not "does it flex at all?."

The issue is that teams were obviously pushing the limit of the rule and the tolerances of the test and going over those restrictions by possibly (maybe) intentionally designing the wing to deform even more than allowed under certain loads. How they might have designed it in such a way I have no informed idea of.
"Nosotros diferimos, pero nosotros todos son iguales"

DChemTech
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Location: Delft, NL

Re: 2021 Monaco Grand Prix - Monte Carlo, May 20 - 23

Post

politburo wrote:
Tue Jun 01, 2021 11:01 am
siskue2005 wrote:
Tue Jun 01, 2021 10:14 am
PlatinumZealot wrote:
Tue Jun 01, 2021 3:32 am


Nope.

The wing is legal as long as it passes the FIA tests. Flexing is inevitable so It's about limitng the flexing enough to pass the tests. Read the recent article by Ross Brawn on this. Very good insight.
They pass the test yes
But there is also a rule stating that there shouldn't be any flexing even when the car is moving and they should comply with that all the time. So it is indeed illegal to contravene a rule.

It's like fuel flow measurement, you cannot go above the allowed value when the sensor is not reading it.
It is physically impossible that a mounted component, such as the front or rear wing will not flex. The spirit of the rule is that the wing need not have excessive flexing not that it be completely rigid. Given the forces these F1 cars encounter, that'd be quite expensive to find a light enough material such that it not flex at all and not add unnecessary weight to the car.

Thus, the whole reason why they have tolerances with the test (even the new one) is that even the FIA knows the wing cannot be infinitely rigid so as to not vibrate or rotate backward on the straights due to the high-velocity airflow or be pushed downwards in corners by the car's downforce. It is literally physically impossible in our current universe for there to be no flex, if the airflow does any mechanical work on the wing it will deform. But the question is "by how much will it flex?" not "does it flex at all?."

The issue is that teams were obviously pushing the limit of the rule and the tolerances of the test and going over those restrictions by possibly (maybe) intentionally designing the wing to deform even more than allowed under certain loads. How they might have designed it in such a way I have no informed idea of.
Exactly, and whether or not the wings were actually illegal, completely hinges on the last aspect. Was there something in the design that deliberately led to more deformation than what could be naturally expected at loads exceeding the test conditions. IMO, that has not been shown conclusively. In addition, the rules do not stipulate what would be naturally expected; 'gut-feeling' may dictate 'at most a linear stress-strain relation', but engineers don't design on gut feeling. So regardless of whether 3.8 + 3.9 can be interpreted in such a way that conclusively declares the wings in question illegal (which I think is still contestable), the main issue is an omission in the rules: the rules do not state any unconditional limit for deformation (say, X mm deformation under any load that is not fatal to the wing integrity), nor does it state any material requirements on basis of which the test conditions can be extrapolated to real-world performance (e.g. 'a deflection that does not exceed linearity under loads higher than imposed during tests'). The new technical directive does not fix that - it just introduces some rather arbitrary new test requirements, and with that, new design criteria, forcing engineers to meet criteria they were never told to design for in the first place.

sosic2121
sosic2121
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Joined: Wed Jun 08, 2016 11:14 am

Re: 2021 Monaco Grand Prix - Monte Carlo, May 20 - 23

Post

siskue2005 wrote:
Tue Jun 01, 2021 1:54 am
sosic2121 wrote:
Mon May 31, 2021 8:12 am
siskue2005 wrote:
Mon May 31, 2021 12:55 am

No, the wing is still illegal as per rules, no body part is allowed to flex even when it passes the deflection test. Movable aero is always illegal
And no engine is allowed to use oil as fuel. Only difference is that wing obeys same rule as any other wing on the grid, while we can't say the same for the engine.
The fia allowed certain level of fuel to be burned and merc cpuld use 1 lit instead of 0.7 lit the following race and they took it the new engine (cheeky but completely leagl and allowed by the rules)..and they was nothing illegal about it in merc engine... there were no secret oil tanks found in merc (was seen in ferrari). It was other grand who were affected by these changes and merc were still the best in the field even after the rule change the following year.
Did
We can keep going in circles!
But the fact remains that everyone can see how the red bull wing flexes in those videos. And there are rules set everywhere in f1 history about movable aero, and fia has been perfectly clear before how its illegal, from mass damper to flex wings over the last 3 decades.
You cannot sugar coat it as its illegal.
Anyways I am stopping this off topic and stupid discussion now. Bye
By that logic every wing on every car on the grid is illegal together with everything oil drinking engine. It's really simple.

aMessageToCharlie
aMessageToCharlie
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Re: 2021 Monaco Grand Prix - Monte Carlo, May 20 - 23

Post

Good to see PlatinumZealot arguing an objective, reasonable perspective for once. Keep it up 👍🏼

Agree completely with camp "Red Bull" on that matter. Either the wing is complying with the set standards (as proven by passing the FIA's test proceedure, or it's not. RB's wing is in compliance with the rules that have been set to measure this area. You cant just move the goal posts mid season to slow down a championship contender team.

That's ridiculing the sport on a global stage. Rules must be stable and consistent. Otherwise we could just scrap the whole rules all together and just let the FIA draw from a tombola which cars will be declared illegal for that year.

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El Scorchio
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Joined: Mon Jul 29, 2019 11:41 am

Re: 2021 Monaco Grand Prix - Monte Carlo, May 20 - 23

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aMessageToCharlie wrote:
Tue Jun 01, 2021 1:36 pm
You cant just move the goal posts mid season to slow down a championship contender team.
They can. And they did last season with banning party mode.

sosic2121
sosic2121
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Joined: Wed Jun 08, 2016 11:14 am

Re: 2021 Monaco Grand Prix - Monte Carlo, May 20 - 23

Post

El Scorchio wrote:
Tue Jun 01, 2021 1:41 pm
aMessageToCharlie wrote:
Tue Jun 01, 2021 1:36 pm
You cant just move the goal posts mid season to slow down a championship contender team.
They can. And they did last season with banning party mode.
On this one, I agree with team mercedes :lol:
Although I personally feel they should not be changing the rules mid-season especially with budget cap, it's been done many times before(party mod included).