2021 British Grand Prix - Silverstone, July 16 - 18

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PhillipM
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Re: 2021 British Grand Prix - Silverstone, July 16 -18

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Fnatic1 wrote:
Thu Jul 22, 2021 12:57 am

Max was alongside, even slightly ahead.
Yes, and Max had 3-4 car widths of track to the left of him to use. It's really simple, Lewis was slowing down, relatively, and turning away from a collision.
Max was going faster, and turning *into* a collision that he had plenty of room to avoid. Even worse, he turns out of it and then back into it if you watch the onboard. He misjudged it, he thought he'd cleared Lewis and could chop in front of him.

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PlatinumZealot
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Re: 2021 British Grand Prix - Silverstone, July 16 -18

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Fnatic1 wrote:
Thu Jul 22, 2021 12:57 am
PlatinumZealot wrote:
Thu Jul 22, 2021 12:53 am
Fnatic1 wrote:
Thu Jul 22, 2021 12:47 am


Whilst Max didn’t compromise Lewis’ line as he left space.

So now you’re implying Lewis caused the crash.
I amended my post with a video. So check my previous post.

Nope. They both had a right to the corner but the inside man obviously has more advantage and can dictate the line as long as he leaves space for the other guy to make it out on exit (if alongside). That's why Lewis wanted the inside so bad. Imagine a giving that up that advantage to a man like Max?! Never.
Direct quote from your post:

“Rules have changed slightly now that you must leave space even for the ouside driver... But not if he is not significant along side.”

Max was alongside, even slightly ahead.

Yes. So what it meant is that Lewis cannot push Max off the track without Penalty.

He wisely forced Max's hand:
A) Max either can hang out to dry on the outside i) be forced wide and hope for a penalty to Lewis. (a good option)

b) Push hard stil and understeer into oblvion but because it is lap one he can still make it back on to the track ahead of Lewis (best option)

C) Hope lewis yields, turn in hard and hope he is not there on the Apex.. (we know how that ended)

d) Yield and follow Lewis into the next corner.
(safest).

The inside man that is alongside going into the braking zone has always "owned" the corner as long as I have watched motor racing. So I was sorta shocked that Max would risk so much.
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dans79
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Re: 2021 British Grand Prix - Silverstone, July 16 -18

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Fnatic1 wrote:
Thu Jul 22, 2021 12:47 am
PlatinumZealot wrote:
Thu Jul 22, 2021 12:40 am
To compromize Max's line. Simple as that.
Whilst Max didn’t compromise Lewis’ line as he left the required space as per sporting regulations.

So now you’re implying Lewis caused the crash.
I'm sorry, but you need to go and watch Max's on board. Pause it right before they touch and look at where his car is pointing. At the point they touch, Max left enough space.

However when you look at where his car is pointing it would have been another half second tops before he had hit the Apex and completely pinched Lewis out.

Max was trying to slam the door on Lewis on corner entry, and Lewis was going to try and push Max wide on corner exit. What Max did is a standard blocking maneuver, and what Lewis did is a standard overtaking maneuver.
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Nickel
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Re: 2021 British Grand Prix - Silverstone, July 16 -18

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Can anyone think of a time (or better yet show a time) where a driver successfully defended copse around the outside? I can't remember any but some here seem to have incredibly encyclopedic f1 memories.

carisi2k
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Re: 2021 British Grand Prix - Silverstone, July 16 -18

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NathanOlder wrote:
Wed Jul 21, 2021 10:19 am
How wrong is this part!

Firstly there was a high chance Max wasn't staying within track limits. Reason being, he got to Copse with the speed he was doing, he turned in, then he opened the steering as he realised Lewis was actually still there. Then re applied the lock. He wasnt going to make the apex because of this, but he was carrying the speed that would require the apex to be hit. If you ever get chance on a track (in a kart or car) or even on a decent sim try taking a corner on your limit so your using all of the track width. Then do it again with the same speed but after your initial turn in, open the wheel up, and then see if you still make the corner.

Secondly Lewis went wide after the contact, the contact caused him to go wider, the contact didn't keep him on a tighter line. 1 part was becasue the contact straightened the front wheels of the Mercedes for a brief moment, and secondly it upset the balance and lightly unloaded the outside tyres losing him grip.
Not a single thing you said here is factually true. The onboard camera shows Max's steering wheel continuing to turn right with no opening up as you proclaim. The first time his hand moves is after contact with Lewis and then you see the car is out of control. Max was not going off the track before the contact and anybody who thinks this is 100% wrong. Leclerc did the exact same thing later on in the race to Lewis and he made the corner because Charles wasn't a championship threat like Max is and so Lewis backed out. If anything Charles was wider then Max.

Lewis knew that this would probably be his last chance to get past Max in the race and this is why he put his car where he did. He was going in there no matter what and that is why it is exactly like Senna vs Prost at Suzuka 1990. It may not have been as pre meditated as Senna but it is still a take out by Lewis on Max and worthy of a much greater penalty then the 10 seconds he got.

I have many Grand Prix games and I can tell you that if you turn in from Max's position you will make club corner but if you turn in from Lewis position you need to brake or lift if you are to stay on the track and not go wide.The contact didn't make Lewis go wide but rather it slowed him down and then he still went wide. If Max backs down then Lewis from his line would have ended up somewhere off track between where Max ended up in the barrier and where he ended up off track.

This is another reason why Lewis did what he did because he would have lost 1-2 seconds and maybe more to Max if he backs down and then Max would pull away. In many ways it is also similar to Senna and Brundle at Donnington park where Senna just put his car where Brundle was going.

Hoffman900
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Re: 2021 British Grand Prix - Silverstone, July 16 -18

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I’m sorry, but video games are nothing like real life.

Max wasn’t going to make that corner, and stay in bounds. They both went full send and they collided. Racing incident.

When you’re Charles, you know you’re in the best spot when you see drivers going at it like that, because you know something is going to happen.

e30ernest
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Re: 2021 British Grand Prix - Silverstone, July 16 -18

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The more I watch the footage, the more I am convinced that this is a racing incident.

Lewis was not understeering. It looked like he was widening the corner up to get a better exit in the same way he did in the previous corners against Max. Max on the other hand wanted to close the door on Lewis. Both of them were at fault.

I'm starting to think that while the stewards are adamant they only penalize for the incident and not the result, I think in this case they were afraid of the backlash if Lewis who was a British driver, driving for the lead of the British Grand Prix (his home race) did not get any sort of penalty for the incident which resulted in a DNF and hefty (bad looking) crash for Max, F1's rising superstar and main title rival.

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ringo
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Re: 2021 British Grand Prix - Silverstone, July 16 -18

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aMessageToCharlie wrote:
Wed Jul 21, 2021 8:04 pm
Marty_Y wrote:
Wed Jul 21, 2021 7:55 pm
Regarding all this apex stuff, am I totally mistaken in thinking that drivers don't have to hit the apex, generally drivers try to hit the apex because in most cases that is the fastest way through a corner?

Also Hamilton hadn't even reached the apex of the corner before the incident took place, so that argument is null and void.
He doesnt have to hit the apex necessarily. But since the other driver isnt obliged to give more than one cars width of space, he would need to make the corner within that space and without making contact imo. In this case he understeered slightly forward into him (which is also why HAM was on the breakes).
Hamilton didnt move "into" Max. Max did all thr moving. And that was across the face of the corner. If anyone was minding their own business it was Hamilton. And the braking, the steering angle shows that. But as I said before, Lewis and others will now just place their car and stay alongside and let the Bully get Red mist and swipe across again and hurt his own championship.
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Kingshark
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Re: 2021 British Grand Prix - Silverstone, July 16 -18

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ringo wrote:
Thu Jul 22, 2021 6:38 am
Hamilton didnt move "into" Max. Max did all thr moving. And that was across the face of the corner. If anyone was minding their own business it was Hamilton.
Obviously Verstappen was moving. You are supposed to move your car if you want to turn it into a corner. The fact that Hamilton was “minding his own business” (aka not turning) when he was supposed to turn is precisely why Hamilton is at fault for the accident.

Just_a_fan
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Re: 2021 British Grand Prix - Silverstone, July 16 -18

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Kingshark wrote:
Thu Jul 22, 2021 7:51 am
ringo wrote:
Thu Jul 22, 2021 6:38 am
Hamilton didnt move "into" Max. Max did all thr moving. And that was across the face of the corner. If anyone was minding their own business it was Hamilton.
Obviously Verstappen was moving. You are supposed to move your car if you want to turn it into a corner. The fact that Hamilton was “minding his own business” (aka not turning) when he was supposed to turn is precisely why Hamilton is at fault for the accident.
Hamilton had a big handful of lock applied in to the corner and was going around the corner. Ergo, he was turning.
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Kingshark
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Re: 2021 British Grand Prix - Silverstone, July 16 -18

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NathanOlder wrote:
Wed Jul 21, 2021 10:19 am
Secondly Lewis went wide after the contact, the contact caused him to go wider
Your understanding of basic physics is wrong. If you are accelerating forward and you make contact with a solid object, that will slow down your momentum, not speed you up.

The fact that Hamilton went slightly wide despite hitting Verstappen shows that he would have gone well wide if Verstappen’s car ghosted. He was never going to make the corner at that speed from that angle. It was a reckless manoeuvre.

Kingshark
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Re: 2021 British Grand Prix - Silverstone, July 16 -18

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Just_a_fan wrote:
Thu Jul 22, 2021 7:53 am
Kingshark wrote:
Thu Jul 22, 2021 7:51 am
ringo wrote:
Thu Jul 22, 2021 6:38 am
Hamilton didnt move "into" Max. Max did all thr moving. And that was across the face of the corner. If anyone was minding their own business it was Hamilton.
Obviously Verstappen was moving. You are supposed to move your car if you want to turn it into a corner. The fact that Hamilton was “minding his own business” (aka not turning) when he was supposed to turn is precisely why Hamilton is at fault for the accident.
Hamilton had a big handful of lock applied in to the corner and was going around the corner. Ergo, he was turning.
Well, given the fact that Verstappen gave him approximately 2 car widths of space down the inside and Hamilton still ran into him, evidently he didn’t steer early enough for the situation he found himself in (carrying lots of speed and on a narrow angle).

Just_a_fan
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Re: 2021 British Grand Prix - Silverstone, July 16 -18

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Kingshark wrote:
Thu Jul 22, 2021 7:59 am
Just_a_fan wrote:
Thu Jul 22, 2021 7:53 am
Kingshark wrote:
Thu Jul 22, 2021 7:51 am


Obviously Verstappen was moving. You are supposed to move your car if you want to turn it into a corner. The fact that Hamilton was “minding his own business” (aka not turning) when he was supposed to turn is precisely why Hamilton is at fault for the accident.
Hamilton had a big handful of lock applied in to the corner and was going around the corner. Ergo, he was turning.
Well, given the fact that Verstappen gave him approximately 2 car widths of space down the inside and Hamilton still ran into him, evidently he didn’t steer early enough for the situation he found himself in (carrying lots of speed and on a narrow angle).
"ran in to him" is emotive. It's also relative. From the perspective of Hamilton's car, Max's car hit it. And from Max's car, the other way round.

From an external frame of reference, Max's car tried to take a radius that brought him across the arc that Hamilton's radius was taking him. As those two arcs intersected, there was always going to be contact unless one or other made longitudinal separation. Max thought that he had made that separation and so continued on his chosen arc. Unfortunately for him, the separation didn't exist - there was still an overlap - and contact occurred.

It's a racing incident all day long unless, it seems, it involves these two drivers, and then suddenly it's "he took him out", "51g, man!", and other irrelevant stuff.

There was no deliberate attempt by either driver to make contact - they both know what that means to their own chances in the race. Deliberate touches do happen, but not in very high speed corners. They're done in low speed stuff where damage to the tapping car is less likely (but not impossible).
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Kingshark
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Re: 2021 British Grand Prix - Silverstone, July 16 -18

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Just_a_fan wrote:
Thu Jul 22, 2021 8:20 am
"ran in to him" is emotive. It's also relative. From the perspective of Hamilton's car, Max's car hit it. And from Max's car, the other way round.

From an external frame of reference, Max's car tried to take a radius that brought him across the arc that Hamilton's radius was taking him. As those two arcs intersected, there was always going to be contact unless one or other made longitudinal separation. Max thought that he had made that separation and so continued on his chosen arc. Unfortunately for him, the separation didn't exist - there was still an overlap - and contact occurred.
This kind of pseudoanalysis sounds great on the surface but it is fairly meaningless. The exact words in this post of yours could be used to argue that every singe incident in F1 history is a racing incident. After all, in every incident, the perception of whose car hit who depends on the frame of reference. In every incident, two arcs of two different cars intersect.

That is why we have rules in racing, to determine who is at fault for these type of incidents. Max was ahead. Max left space down the inside. Max did his part. It was up to Lewis to control his car, use the space on the inside, and not hit the driver on the outside (who was ahead). Lewis failed to achieve this, just like Brazil 2019 and Austria 2020. That is why the race stewards, who have access to telemetry and data, judged Lewis at fault for the accident.
There was no deliberate attempt by either driver to make contact - they both know what that means to their own chances in the race. Deliberate touches do happen, but not in very high speed corners. They're done in low speed stuff where damage to the tapping car is less likely (but not impossible).
Did I ever call it deliberate? If not, why are you even bringing it up?

Kingshark
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Re: 2021 British Grand Prix - Silverstone, July 16 -18

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PlatinumZealot wrote:
Thu Jul 22, 2021 1:20 am
The inside man that is alongside going into the braking zone has always "owned" the corner as long as I have watched motor racing. So I was sorta shocked that Max would risk so much.
Nope. That's not how it works.

If those were the rules, then Hamilton was at fault for hitting Raikkonen at Silverstone 2018, using your exact rules.