2018 Mexico Grand Prix - Autódromo Hermanos Rodríguez, 26-28 October

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NathanOlder
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Re: 2018 Mexico Grand Prix - Autódromo Hermanos Rodríguez, 26-28 October

Post by NathanOlder » Sat Nov 24, 2018 6:58 pm

Its far from Boring now, so why bring it back ?!
And I know they are fuel limited now, I'm just saying that adding refuelling wont add anything to the show other than more chance of pit stops going wrong with a sticky fuel nozzle.

People seem to think F1 of 15yrs ago was way better than it is now, when the only thing that was certainly better was the sound/volume.
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Re: 2018 Mexico Grand Prix - Autódromo Hermanos Rodríguez, 26-28 October

Post by siskue2005 » Sat Nov 24, 2018 7:19 pm

NathanOlder wrote:
Sat Nov 24, 2018 6:58 pm
Its far from Boring now, so why bring it back ?!
And I know they are fuel limited now, I'm just saying that adding refuelling wont add anything to the show other than more chance of pit stops going wrong with a sticky fuel nozzle.
adding refueling will allow for different strategies and pushing through out the race....people can light fuel and go faster....like Hungary 1998 and France 2004....both possible only due to refuelling (otherwise Schumacher would have tried to undercut the others and failed to do so in the one and only pitstop)
People seem to think F1 of 15yrs ago was way better than it is now, when the only thing that was certainly better was the sound/volume.
The poor aero rules and poor competitions (frankly there was no one to match Schumacher and ferrari...or he was so OP that no one could match him) were the real culprit back then...... with today's aero and DRS it would have been great racing

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Re: 2018 Mexico Grand Prix - Autódromo Hermanos Rodríguez, 26-28 October

Post by Jolle » Sat Nov 24, 2018 9:12 pm

I remember in the days of re-fueling that I was quite frustrated that almost all overtaking was during pit-stops. So no, they can keep re-fueling in the history books for me

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Re: 2018 Mexico Grand Prix - Autódromo Hermanos Rodríguez, 26-28 October

Post by NathanOlder » Sat Nov 24, 2018 9:13 pm

@Siskue
I dont think it will allow for pushing throughout the race though. All the cars will still be running with just enough fuel and fuel saving, just like today.

As i understand it, most cars if not all, start the races now without the maximum amount of fuel allowed. So they choose to run lighter and fuel save. So refuelling would probably have the same.

, agree with Jolle , it was like 'why try a risky overtake when we can just short fuel at the next stop'
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Re: 2018 Mexico Grand Prix - Autódromo Hermanos Rodríguez, 26-28 October

Post by komninosm » Mon Nov 26, 2018 2:24 pm

Jolle wrote:
Sat Nov 24, 2018 9:12 pm
I remember in the days of re-fueling that I was quite frustrated that almost all overtaking was during pit-stops. So no, they can keep re-fueling in the history books for me
Umm no it wasn't.
If you have only 1 good strategy for the race (usually 1 pit stop) then all the big teams are going to follow that.
If you make a second stop more appealing then more teams will try that.
How do you make it more appealing? Increase the gains and decrease the losses.
How do you do that? Increase the race line, decrease the pit line length (entry and exit), and add refueling.
Formula 1 passes happen more often now because of DRS, not because of lack of refueling. Add refueling for even more passes is logical.

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Re: 2018 Mexico Grand Prix - Autódromo Hermanos Rodríguez, 26-28 October

Post by komninosm » Mon Nov 26, 2018 2:27 pm

NathanOlder wrote:
Sat Nov 24, 2018 9:13 pm
@Siskue
I dont think it will allow for pushing throughout the race though. All the cars will still be running with just enough fuel and fuel saving, just like today.

As i understand it, most cars if not all, start the races now without the maximum amount of fuel allowed. So they choose to run lighter and fuel save. So refuelling would probably have the same.

, agree with Jolle , it was like 'why try a risky overtake when we can just short fuel at the next stop'
The difference is some cars will be lighter than others if they refuel twice instead of once. All other things being equal this will make more pit stops better. People were asking for mandatory 2 pit stops and other silly stuff. I propose instead making 2 pit stops organically better than 1. Win win

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Re: 2018 Mexico Grand Prix - Autódromo Hermanos Rodríguez, 26-28 October

Post by hollus » Mon Nov 26, 2018 4:00 pm

If it wasn't because the season is over and all users of this site are about to go into depression mode, we'd give off-topic points (*) to everyone who contributed to the last page. Not a whiff of on-topic. Bravo! =D>

Just a gentle reminder that what one feels like replying to here-and-now is not what every other user is expecting in, say, a mexican GP thread, and thus is a big put-off to everyone else but the ones having the long off-topic discussion. It is, in fact a nice way to kill a thread. Trying to generally stay on-topic is a sign of respect to everyone else, and one can always find or open a thread for that particular discussion that must be had there-and-now. Thank you.


(*) Actually, there is no such thing.
It is not white, it is not black, it is probably gray.

siskue2005
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Re: 2018 Mexico Grand Prix - Autódromo Hermanos Rodríguez, 26-28 October

Post by siskue2005 » Sun Dec 02, 2018 7:42 pm

Jolle wrote:
Sat Nov 24, 2018 9:12 pm
I remember in the days of re-fueling that I was quite frustrated that almost all overtaking was during pit-stops. So no, they can keep re-fueling in the history books for me
That was due to poor aero and lack of mechanical grip ....which has been solved now with cleaner aero, slick tyres and DRS etc...... i dont remember anyone not overtaking other car ONLY because of refueling, it was 99% due to poor aero.....it is like saying that the 9/11 attacks happened during the refueling era, so no, they can keep re-fueling in the history books for me :wtf: :lol: :lol:

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Re: 2018 Mexico Grand Prix - Autódromo Hermanos Rodríguez, 26-28 October

Post by NathanOlder » Mon Dec 03, 2018 2:13 pm

siskue2005 wrote:
Sun Dec 02, 2018 7:42 pm
Jolle wrote:
Sat Nov 24, 2018 9:12 pm
I remember in the days of re-fueling that I was quite frustrated that almost all overtaking was during pit-stops. So no, they can keep re-fueling in the history books for me
That was due to poor aero and lack of mechanical grip ....which has been solved now with cleaner aero, slick tyres and DRS etc...... i dont remember anyone not overtaking other car ONLY because of refueling, it was 99% due to poor aero.....it is like saying that the 9/11 attacks happened during the refueling era, so no, they can keep re-fueling in the history books for me :wtf: :lol: :lol:
WtaF ?

There were times you know that a driver was probably going to pit in the next few laps, as teams knew how much fuel others had onboard, so if the guy in front next year was a Verstappen or Grosjean or KMag, and you know he will definitely pit in 1-3 laps time, the result is, you probably don't risk it and save your tyres/fuel and not bother attempting to overtake so when they pull in to the pits, you can turn it all up and use the best part of the tyres when in clean air.
So IMO refuelling doesn't promote overtaking at all.
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Re: 2018 Mexico Grand Prix - Autódromo Hermanos Rodríguez, 26-28 October

Post by netoperek » Mon Dec 03, 2018 6:07 pm

NathanOlder wrote:
Mon Dec 03, 2018 2:13 pm
siskue2005 wrote:
Sun Dec 02, 2018 7:42 pm
Jolle wrote:
Sat Nov 24, 2018 9:12 pm
I remember in the days of re-fueling that I was quite frustrated that almost all overtaking was during pit-stops. So no, they can keep re-fueling in the history books for me
That was due to poor aero and lack of mechanical grip ....which has been solved now with cleaner aero, slick tyres and DRS etc...... i dont remember anyone not overtaking other car ONLY because of refueling, it was 99% due to poor aero.....it is like saying that the 9/11 attacks happened during the refueling era, so no, they can keep re-fueling in the history books for me :wtf: :lol: :lol:
WtaF ?

There were times you know that a driver was probably going to pit in the next few laps, as teams knew how much fuel others had onboard, so if the guy in front next year was a Verstappen or Grosjean or KMag, and you know he will definitely pit in 1-3 laps time, the result is, you probably don't risk it and save your tyres/fuel and not bother attempting to overtake so when they pull in to the pits, you can turn it all up and use the best part of the tyres when in clean air.
So IMO refuelling doesn't promote overtaking at all.
Then again, there were constantly situations on track, where some cars had less fuel then the car in front and it was crucial to overtake asap for a strategy to work. With refueling there is a chance of let's say Grosjean fighting for a position with Hamilton or virtually any combination of drivers, while without it, there is no such chance.

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Re: 2018 Mexico Grand Prix - Autódromo Hermanos Rodríguez, 26-28 October

Post by NathanOlder » Mon Dec 03, 2018 6:10 pm

Like a car a lap down trying to unlap himself
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netoperek
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Re: 2018 Mexico Grand Prix - Autódromo Hermanos Rodríguez, 26-28 October

Post by netoperek » Mon Dec 03, 2018 7:07 pm

NathanOlder wrote:
Mon Dec 03, 2018 6:10 pm
Like a car a lap down trying to unlap himself
Very much not like this, as it's a genuine fight for a position

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Re: 2018 Mexico Grand Prix - Autódromo Hermanos Rodríguez, 26-28 October

Post by siskue2005 » Tue Dec 04, 2018 4:49 pm

NathanOlder wrote:
Mon Dec 03, 2018 6:10 pm
Like a car a lap down trying to unlap himself
the majority of early 2000s refueling era was marred by utter domination by ferrari and schumacher and poor aero, grooved tyres etc, that has skewed or scared (i would rather say) many fans..... but to get a good look at refueling different strategy changes, we need to look at races from mid to late ninties....those were great coz the aero was better and refueling added much needed spice to the race. So the current race cars are almost same level as late 90s cars in overtaking and following department (especially with 2019 changes)....so surely this should add more to racing now

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Re: 2018 Mexico Grand Prix - Autódromo Hermanos Rodríguez, 26-28 October

Post by siskue2005 » Tue Dec 04, 2018 4:56 pm

NathanOlder wrote:
Mon Dec 03, 2018 2:13 pm
siskue2005 wrote:
Sun Dec 02, 2018 7:42 pm
Jolle wrote:
Sat Nov 24, 2018 9:12 pm
I remember in the days of re-fueling that I was quite frustrated that almost all overtaking was during pit-stops. So no, they can keep re-fueling in the history books for me
That was due to poor aero and lack of mechanical grip ....which has been solved now with cleaner aero, slick tyres and DRS etc...... i dont remember anyone not overtaking other car ONLY because of refueling, it was 99% due to poor aero.....it is like saying that the 9/11 attacks happened during the refueling era, so no, they can keep re-fueling in the history books for me :wtf: :lol: :lol:
WtaF ?

There were times you know that a driver was probably going to pit in the next few laps, as teams knew how much fuel others had onboard, so if the guy in front next year was a Verstappen or Grosjean or KMag, and you know he will definitely pit in 1-3 laps time, the result is, you probably don't risk it and save your tyres/fuel and not bother attempting to overtake so when they pull in to the pits, you can turn it all up and use the best part of the tyres when in clean air.
So IMO refuelling doesn't promote overtaking at all.
why do you think they waited and overtook in the pits?? coz they couldnt follow and stay behind another car.... and without the DRS there was no chance to even come near another car ( as the aero, grooved tyres etc didnt allow them).....so refueling was not the reason of lack of overtaking.

Refueling would promote more pitstops and varying strategies......otherwise we will get one pitstop and saving tyres for the 3/4th of the race (prime example abudabhi race 2018)

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Re: 2018 Mexico Grand Prix - Autódromo Hermanos Rodríguez, 26-28 October

Post by foxmulder_ms » Tue Dec 04, 2018 5:42 pm

I dont like refueling. People say DRS is gimmicky... refueling is a real gimmick especially when some teams have B-teams. It will be so dirty. Slower cars fueling less just to block faster cars etc.