2020 Italian Grand Prix - Monza, September 4 - 6

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sosic2121
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Re: 2020 Italian Grand Prix - Monza, September 4 - 6

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Many people here praised Gasly and Sainz after the race, but I haven't noticed anyone commenting on Stroll's success

Is the 3rd place a success or a failure, after he lucked into pole position start? 😁

selvam_e2002
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Re: 2020 Italian Grand Prix - Monza, September 4 - 6

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Gazly and Stroll -- Pure luck.
Sainz and Noris -- Actual result.

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Big Tea
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Re: 2020 Italian Grand Prix - Monza, September 4 - 6

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selvam_e2002 wrote:
Wed Sep 09, 2020 11:25 am
Gazly and Stroll -- Pure luck.
Sainz and Noris -- Actual result.
Luck so often comes from putting the groundwork in and being in a position to benefit from it.
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cooken
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Re: 2020 Italian Grand Prix - Monza, September 4 - 6

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Big Tea wrote:
Wed Sep 09, 2020 11:27 am
selvam_e2002 wrote:
Wed Sep 09, 2020 11:25 am
Gazly and Stroll -- Pure luck.
Sainz and Noris -- Actual result.
Luck so often comes from putting the groundwork in and being in a position to benefit from it.
Except in this case where Gasly was in the position to benefit only because of poor strategy/performance...

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Phil
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Re: 2020 Italian Grand Prix - Monza, September 4 - 6

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I have to say, I don't "mind" Hamilton losing a win like this (and considering the WDC position he is currently in), however, I must say I find it a bit baffling that a decision to close the pitlane for the essentially safety reasons (which it always is), is simply a few markers on the outside of a corner and a bulletin message. I would assume and hope that something that is communicated for safety reasons to be highlighted appropriately that there is little margin for error, because, there could be potential lives at stake (of marshals there etc).
Not for nothing, Rosberg's Championship is the only thing that lends credibility to Hamilton's recent success. Otherwise, he'd just be the guy who's had the best car. — bhall II
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Jolle
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Re: 2020 Italian Grand Prix - Monza, September 4 - 6

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Phil wrote:
Wed Sep 09, 2020 12:50 pm
I have to say, I don't "mind" Hamilton losing a win like this (and considering the WDC position he is currently in), however, I must say I find it a bit baffling that a decision to close the pitlane for the essentially safety reasons (which it always is), is simply a few markers on the outside of a corner and a bulletin message. I would assume and hope that something that is communicated for safety reasons to be highlighted appropriately that there is little margin for error, because, there could be potential lives at stake (of marshals there etc).
That is a bit jumping to a conclusion that isn't there. If there was a real problem with, lets say, marshals laying in the pitlane entry or something like that, they would have red flagged it right away with a direct voice message to all teams to park on the grid.

procedures like this, marshals won't go on track before race control is absolutely sure everybody knows that its closed, or, in this case, when everybody is behind the SC, on a different part of the circuit (and that's also why there was no VSC).
Compare it to when they cross off a section of public roads, the crosses start way before the incident, so even if you miss a few, you get a penalty instead of an accident.

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PlatinumZealot
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Re: 2020 Italian Grand Prix - Monza, September 4 - 6

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This is blotch on Massis's record that is for sure. Definitely could be handled better.
Not driving a Mercedes? Work harder!

SmallSoldier
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Re: 2020 Italian Grand Prix - Monza, September 4 - 6

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Phil wrote:I have to say, I don't "mind" Hamilton losing a win like this (and considering the WDC position he is currently in), however, I must say I find it a bit baffling that a decision to close the pitlane for the essentially safety reasons (which it always is), is simply a few markers on the outside of a corner and a bulletin message. I would assume and hope that something that is communicated for safety reasons to be highlighted appropriately that there is little margin for error, because, there could be potential lives at stake (of marshals there etc).
Yes, but that’s why the flags, boards, etc exists... So that drivers don’t have to rely on the radio. In this case, regardless of how hidden the information was, the boards where there and Hamilton didn’t paid attention, as simple as that... Is his responsibility to ensure he is looking at the boards / Marshall’s during the race

That’s the first thing I was taught when I started racing, always look at the Marshall Towers.


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sosic2121
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Re: 2020 Italian Grand Prix - Monza, September 4 - 6

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PlatinumZealot wrote:
Wed Sep 09, 2020 2:43 pm
This is blotch on Massis's record that is for sure. Definitely could be handled better.
LOL

SC period since ever influence race outcome. I'm sorry that you're favourite driver didn't see the panel, and that team that produced most dominant car in the history of the sport dropped the ball.
But this definitely not Massis's fault

komninosm
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Re: 2020 Italian Grand Prix - Monza, September 4 - 6

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matt_b wrote:
Mon Sep 07, 2020 12:34 pm
Big Tea wrote:
Mon Sep 07, 2020 12:03 pm
Just a little additional to the pit lane incident. Irrespective of the right or wrong of of Hamilton being given a penalty, as it involved people being on the track and a car not obeying the command ( which should have been accompanied by double waved yellow to my mind) there has to be a heavy penalty. It can not be reduced or rescinded.
I half expected disqualification
They gave Lewis and Giovinazzi the strongest penalty available, of course if it was wet and they only had a few seconds to react I would presume they would've got the same 5 second time penalty Danny Ric got in Brazil 2016 for entering the pit lane when it was closed, we will never know though.
This is scandalous :

https://www.racefans.net/2016-f1-season ... ex/#inv720

20. Brazil Daniel Ricciardo Red Bull R Entered a closed pit entry Five-second time penalty Car 3 entered the pit entry when it was closed. The stewards took into consideration the limited visibility of the light panel indicating the pit entry was closed, the very short time the driver may have had to see it, as well as the few seconds the team had to react to the message sent on the official messaging system.

komninosm
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Re: 2020 Italian Grand Prix - Monza, September 4 - 6

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El Scorchio wrote:
Mon Sep 07, 2020 5:41 pm
Fulcrum wrote:
Mon Sep 07, 2020 5:21 pm
El Scorchio wrote:
Mon Sep 07, 2020 3:30 pm


Yes, I agree with that- this particular incident should be safety car- especially in line with protocols in F1 this season, but the point is that this scenario proves VSC is absolutely available this season so why is the safety car being used in F1 for incidents that are far far less dangerous and far more trivial than this? You have to say that on this evidence the Magnussen thing should/could have absolutely been treated with VSC in F2, which in my view is the appropriate measure considering the situation of the race and the position of Magnussen's car and relative risk. So why was it deemed necessary to use full safety car there? IMO the only rational reasoning can be that VSC wasn't available, which it clearly is. There have been several other incidents this season when full SC has been deployed where in the past it wouldn't have and countless people on race threads are rightly asking why it's necessary? Why hasn't there been a SINGLE instance of VSC in an F1 Grand Prix this year? It just doesn't add up to me.
Marshals were on track, it's really pretty straight forward, whether you deem it to be appropriate or otherwise.

I can't comment on all other instances of safety car usage. It wouldn't surprise me to learn SC has been used more readily than VSC, as it is a lot easier to argue in hindsight without a time constraint how to respond in the heat of the moment. Given this is not the case, moving straight to SC is the risk averse approach, the safety first approach, even if it is at times not necessary.
Marshalls weren't and didn't need to be actually on track to get Magnussen's car pushed down the grass and into the pit lane. Clearly it's not a hard and fast rule anyway as demonstrated in the F2 incident. Whether that's judged right or wrong, the same powers that be let it happen so why is it OK in one series and not the other. In addition I thought double waved yellow means 'marshalls on track be prepared to stop' and doesn't have to be necessarily accompanied by a safety car.

It's not a case of SC being used more frequently in comparison- VSC hasn't been used once in a race this season unless someone can specifically recall otherwise- and there's been no reason given for this on safety grounds or being risk averse, where it would have been VSC in the past. It feels like there's been an unspoken change in approach and it just doesn't add up to me.

I think we'll have to agree to disagree on this one because it's clear we see it a bit differently!
Yes, it's pretty clear the safer option when you close the pit lane is a VSC with Magnussen's car. It's also the fairer option by far.

bosyber
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Re: 2020 Italian Grand Prix - Monza, September 4 - 6

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komninosm wrote:
Wed Sep 09, 2020 7:11 pm
matt_b wrote:
Mon Sep 07, 2020 12:34 pm
Big Tea wrote:
Mon Sep 07, 2020 12:03 pm
Just a little additional to the pit lane incident. Irrespective of the right or wrong of of Hamilton being given a penalty, as it involved people being on the track and a car not obeying the command ( which should have been accompanied by double waved yellow to my mind) there has to be a heavy penalty. It can not be reduced or rescinded.
I half expected disqualification
They gave Lewis and Giovinazzi the strongest penalty available, of course if it was wet and they only had a few seconds to react I would presume they would've got the same 5 second time penalty Danny Ric got in Brazil 2016 for entering the pit lane when it was closed, we will never know though.
This is scandalous :

https://www.racefans.net/2016-f1-season ... ex/#inv720

20. Brazil Daniel Ricciardo Red Bull R Entered a closed pit entry Five-second time penalty Car 3 entered the pit entry when it was closed. The stewards took into consideration the limited visibility of the light panel indicating the pit entry was closed, the very short time the driver may have had to see it, as well as the few seconds the team had to react to the message sent on the official messaging system.
Don't know about scandalous, but yes it does show Masi as continuing to be not quite consistent. Almost cries for another 'explainer' of the decision that only explains what their reasoning was, but not why that reasoning this time was different from another time :)

komninosm
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Re: 2020 Italian Grand Prix - Monza, September 4 - 6

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Just_a_fan wrote:
Mon Sep 07, 2020 9:48 pm
Not sure if this has been posted already, but here's Hamilton's red flag radio comms. Starts by asking if Leclerc is ok on approach to the pits, goes through the discussion about the best time to take the penalty. Ends with the pull out of the pit lane.

https://youtu.be/pMDAV7jX4Vg

Also, radio comms from the weekend in general.

https://youtu.be/iAQNJ-Ah0_g
Interesting. Apparently they cannot serve a time penalty during a safety car so that's why they went in to serve it immediately.
Still should have been a VSC though. It was 100% the reason VSC were invented. No debris on track, pit lane closed, car stopped outside of main track that can be wheeled out. Fairness of VSC didn't suit the plans of some people obviously...

komninosm
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Re: 2020 Italian Grand Prix - Monza, September 4 - 6

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bosyber wrote:
Wed Sep 09, 2020 7:58 pm
komninosm wrote:
Wed Sep 09, 2020 7:11 pm
matt_b wrote:
Mon Sep 07, 2020 12:34 pm


They gave Lewis and Giovinazzi the strongest penalty available, of course if it was wet and they only had a few seconds to react I would presume they would've got the same 5 second time penalty Danny Ric got in Brazil 2016 for entering the pit lane when it was closed, we will never know though.
This is scandalous :

https://www.racefans.net/2016-f1-season ... ex/#inv720

20. Brazil Daniel Ricciardo Red Bull R Entered a closed pit entry Five-second time penalty Car 3 entered the pit entry when it was closed. The stewards took into consideration the limited visibility of the light panel indicating the pit entry was closed, the very short time the driver may have had to see it, as well as the few seconds the team had to react to the message sent on the official messaging system.
Don't know about scandalous, but yes it does show Masi as continuing to be not quite consistent. Almost cries for another 'explainer' of the decision that only explains what their reasoning was, but not why that reasoning this time was different from another time :)
On second thought, that RIC incident was the reason they made this penalty standardized. I still think the lack of VSC was scandalous though and also the lack of proper messaging for Closed Pit Lane, with lights on track on the INSIDE of the curb and message on pit entry and radio message.
But the whole problem started with the absurd lack of VSC. Why force people to even think of going to pits with a car stopped on the pit entry? VSC causes people to think less of pitting immediately and also no debris on track, track was clear.

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Schuttelberg
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Re: 2020 Italian Grand Prix - Monza, September 4 - 6

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sosic2121 wrote:
Tue Sep 08, 2020 11:02 am
Schuttelberg wrote:
Mon Sep 07, 2020 6:00 pm
NathanOlder wrote:
Mon Sep 07, 2020 1:42 pm



Thats harsh on Massa, or please tell me your not talking about Bottas ? If Bottas is the worst F1 driver you have seen, you clearly have only watched the 2 Mercedes cars this year and no other car in F1 ever. Come on man , be serious.
Yes I am talking about Bottas. I think Felipe was a feisty little character and while he was no Hamilton, he wasn't a pu$$y! Obviously, I'm not talking about the likes of Badoer or Yammmamoto or Ide but I don't think I've seen a worse driver than Bottas in a championship capable car and he's the worst by some margin. Obviously, he'll win another couple of races this year but he is not the foot nail of Rosberg and let's not even talk about Hamilton even though Lewis is Lewis and being his team mate is very hard.
I agree with this. But couple of times when Lewis dropped the ball, he would step up and keep Ferraris from winning.

Maybe he has No.2 in his contract. And he's doing a perfect job.
Why do you need Bottas for that? There's Binotto!
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