Red Bull Power Unit Hardware & Software

All that has to do with the power train, gearbox, clutch, fuels and lubricants, etc. Generally the mechanical side of Formula One.
saviour stivala
saviour stivala
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Re: Red Bull Power Unit Hardware & Software

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So it is now agreed that (1) The MGU-H spins at the same RPM of the turbo and so no gearbox is used. (2) From 2014 to 2021 the MGU-H was permitted to be clutch to the turbo shaft.

wuzak
wuzak
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Re: Red Bull Power Unit Hardware & Software

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saviour stivala wrote:
Fri Nov 03, 2023 5:10 am
So it is now agreed that (1) The MGU-H spins at the same RPM of the turbo and so no gearbox is used. (2) From 2014 to 2021 the MGU-H was permitted to be clutch to the turbo shaft.
(1) Yes, it appears that the manufacturers have chosen to not use a gearbox between the turbo and MGUH, even though the rules allow it. Can't be changed now, since the designs are frozen.

(2) Yes, from 2014 to 2021 the MGUH could be clutched. It seems likely that the manufacturers chose not to use a clutch, even though the rules allow it, because the rule was dropped for the PU regulation revisions for 2022.

saviour stivala
saviour stivala
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Re: Red Bull Power Unit Hardware & Software

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Yes agreed on most of what you now declare/that at long last you came round to agree on re-speed oh 'H' and 'T' + gearbox in between + clutch also in between.

gruntguru
gruntguru
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Re: Red Bull Power Unit Hardware & Software

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saviour stivala wrote:
Tue Nov 07, 2023 5:58 am
Yes agreed on most of what you now declare/that at long last you came round to agree on re-speed oh 'H' and 'T' + gearbox in between + clutch also in between.
Actually Wuzak hasn't "come around" one millimeter. His original correction of your false claim is repeated below.
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saviour stivala wrote:
Sun Oct 22, 2023 5:35 am
wuzak wrote:
Fri Oct 20, 2023 5:50 am
saviour stivala wrote:
Wed Oct 18, 2023 5:24 am
. . . . . . And as at present, the turbo speed is actually limited to that of the MGU-H at 125k RPM and not 15k RPM as corrected on the other technical forum were the wisdom was also pushed out.
The current rules allow for a gearbox (fixed ratio) between the turbo and MGUH, so the turbo speed is not, in fact, limited by the MGUH speed.
Re-"H"+ gearbox, you are mixing "H' with ''K". "H" might be clutched but no gearbox, so ''H'' and turbo same rotational speed.
je suis charlie

saviour stivala
saviour stivala
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Re: Red Bull Power Unit Hardware & Software

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''Actually 'Wuzak' hasn't come around'' Discussion so far shows he did, and how.

wuzak
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Re: Red Bull Power Unit Hardware & Software

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saviour stivala wrote:
Tue Nov 07, 2023 8:28 am
''Actually 'Wuzak' hasn't come around'' Discussion so far shows he did, and how.
I merely pointed out that the turbo speed is no, in fact, limited by the rules.

It still isn't.

That the manufacturers choose to not use a gearbox between the turbo and MGUH doesn't change the fact that the rules allow them to do so.

Similarly, that the rules, until recently, allowed for a clutch system between the MGUH and turbo does not mean any of the PUs were so equipped.

saviour stivala
saviour stivala
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Re: Red Bull Power Unit Hardware & Software

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Yes and thanks agree, that the manufacturers chose not to use a gearbox between the 'H' and 'T', That is after all what I have been saying, and also that that means the 'H' and 'T' rotates at the same speed. As to a clutch between 'H' and 'T', at least you also came round to admit that it was permitted up to 2021 but according to your interpretations of the rules warding not from 2022. I have no prove that a clutch have ever been used, all I can say/was saying is it was permitted, If you have and can produce prove on here that it was never used I will appreciate it.

wuzak
wuzak
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Re: Red Bull Power Unit Hardware & Software

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saviour stivala wrote:
Wed Nov 08, 2023 7:42 am
Yes and thanks agree, that the manufacturers chose not to use a gearbox between the 'H' and 'T', That is after all what I have been saying, and also that that means the 'H' and 'T' rotates at the same speed. As to a clutch between 'H' and 'T', at least you also came round to admit that it was permitted up to 2021 but according to your interpretations of the rules warding not from 2022. I have no prove that a clutch have ever been used, all I can say/was saying is it was permitted, If you have and can produce prove on here that it was never used I will appreciate it.
I can't prove that a clutching system was never used because I don't have direct knowledge of the power units.

The rule states that the MGUH must have a fixed speed ratio with the turbo.

Up to, and including, 2021 there was a clause that specifically allowed the MGUH to be clutched, but now there is not.
If a clutch is used, it s no longer a fixed ratio.

The problem with gearboxes and clutch systems in the turbo/MGUH is that it increases weight, rotational inertia, complexity and adds possible points of failure.

saviour stivala
saviour stivala
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Re: Red Bull Power Unit Hardware & Software

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''If a clutch is used, it is no longer a fixed speed ratio''. Wrong reasoning/interpretations of the technical rules. ''H'' to ''T'' LINK. - ''This mechanical link must be of fixed speed ratio to the exhaust turbine 'AND MAY BE CLUTCHED'.

gruntguru
gruntguru
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Re: Red Bull Power Unit Hardware & Software

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I assume English is not your first language. You keep jumping in to correct what you see as mistakes in posts when you clearly don't understand what is being said.

The original rule specifically mentioned a clutch because the "fixed speed ratio" clause would otherwise rule out the option of clutching.

The new rule does not mention a clutch and without that the "fixed speed ratio" clause now rules out the option of clutching.
je suis charlie

wuzak
wuzak
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Re: Red Bull Power Unit Hardware & Software

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saviour stivala wrote:
Wed Nov 08, 2023 5:28 pm
''If a clutch is used, it is no longer a fixed speed ratio''. Wrong reasoning/interpretations of the technical rules. ''H'' to ''T'' LINK. - ''This mechanical link must be of fixed speed ratio to the exhaust turbine 'AND MAY BE CLUTCHED'.
We have been over this.

The phrase "may be clutched" is omitted from the current PU rules.

If the link between the MGUH and turbo is 1:1 (i.e., no gearbox) then the MGUH and turbo spin at the same rpm.

If a clutch is used and is disengaged the MGUH speed could fall to 0, while the turbo speed does not. That is no longer a 1:1 ratio.

saviour stivala
saviour stivala
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Re: Red Bull Power Unit Hardware & Software

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''H'' to ''T'' link - This link must be of fixed speed ratio and it may be clutched - (the link may be clutched). ''Fixed speed ratio'' means 2 gears of any ratio from that of ''1:1'' between driver and driven, and no change of ratio is possible. If the speed ratio is ''1:1'' the ratio intention/scoop is that of changing direction of rotation between driver and driven. 'The link may be clutched'' - A mechanical 'LINKAGE' between the driver and the driven. By disengaging the clutch, the speed of (RPM) of the driver no longer determines the speed (RPM) of the driven. A clutch between the fixed speed ratio of a driver and that being driven only disconnects the drive from one to the other. The formula 1 turbocharger compressor and turbine wheels are mounted on a single shaft and so they both rotates at the same speed and at the same direction. The MGU-H is coupled to the turbine/compressor wheels shaft, It may rotate in the same direction of said shaft or counter to it. What we came to agree on is that that both "H'' and ''T'' shafts although separate shafts rotates at the same speed (rpm) no matter if they rotates in the same direction of rotation or counter to each other.

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Mattchu
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Re: Red Bull Power Unit Hardware & Software

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Whilst I enjoy the technical discussion going on I personally feel this is

Image

I`m quite looking forward to this next shake up (wish it was sooner) and am intrigued to see what RBPT come up with. They have certainly chucked a hell of a lot of money at the project and hired some top engineers. I wonder if battery tech will improve in time for these next PU`s, it doesn`t seem to have progressed as much as the other bits, if the efficiency (<50%) of the current crop is correct, which I`ve no reason to doubt...

AR3-GP
AR3-GP
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Re: Red Bull Power Unit Hardware & Software

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https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/red- ... /10545397/
“At the moment we don't want this season to stop,” he said. “But 2026, it's the next chapter for us, and it's taking control of the one bit of variable that we've had.

“I don't think people perhaps comprehend the scale of the challenge that we've taken on for 2026. But the way the team is attacking it is exactly the same way that we have with the chassis.

“We've got two years which seems like a long way away, but we've pretty much got 100 weeks now to when we're rolling down the pitlane with a Red Bull-designed and manufactured engine in the back of the car. So that's nerve wracking and exciting all at once.

“But we're on a good trajectory. We have got some great people involved, and we have got a great culture. We're looking forward, and I'm looking forward, to it.”

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lio007
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Re: Red Bull Power Unit Hardware & Software

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What do you think do we see here?


Something 2026-related?