Red Bull RB8 Renault

A place to discuss the characteristics of the cars in Formula One, both current as well as historical. Laptimes, driver worshipping and team chatter do not belong here.
Adrian Newby
Adrian Newby
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Joined: 07 Feb 2012, 23:05

Re: Red Bull RB8 Renault

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Excellent first post! And well said.

(Of course I would say that, but it does seem like you would have had a well-considered post even if you agreed with the other point of view on this subject)

Welcome aboard.

bhall
bhall
244
Joined: 28 Feb 2006, 21:26

Re: Red Bull RB8 Renault

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I guess I needed to be a little more explicit.

I think the "inboarders" have won the day.

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(Click to enlarge)

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(Click to enlarge)

(You know what I hate more than being wrong? Having to say it twice.)

Adrian Newby
Adrian Newby
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Joined: 07 Feb 2012, 23:05

Re: Red Bull RB8 Renault

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bhallg2k wrote:I guess I needed to be a little more explicit.

I think the "inboarders" have won the day.

(You know what I hate more than being wrong? Having to say it twice.)
I don't see anything in those photos that would make me change my mind.

I hate to lose you to the Dark Side, but you must do what you feel is right, of course...

It is hard to visualize that exhaust because it comes out on the corner of the sidepod. So from one angle it looks like the flow is on top, and from another it looks like the flow is on the side. For inboard/outboard visualizing, a view from directly above is best, and most accurate. For up/down visualizing, a view directly from the side is best, and most accurate.
Last edited by Adrian Newby on 10 Mar 2012, 18:56, edited 1 time in total.

Adrian Newby
Adrian Newby
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Joined: 07 Feb 2012, 23:05

Re: Red Bull RB8 Renault

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Dragonfly wrote:
bhallg2k wrote:I guess I needed to be a little more explicit.

I think the "inboarders" have won the day.

(You know what I hate more than being wrong? Having to say it twice.)
Sorry, I have no clue why those pictures are shown and what on them proves flow goes inboard.
I think Bhall just misread them, with the funky angle they were taken at.

Pup
Pup
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Joined: 08 May 2008, 17:45

Re: Red Bull RB8 Renault

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Crucial_Xtreme wrote:
Pup wrote:Personally, I think y'alls problem is that you're thinking too much about the tunnel and not enough about what makes it. That is, the tunnel has always been there - it's just that they hadn't pointed it out for you.
I'm not sure what you mean Pup? I don't think the reason for the tunnel is under discussion, McLaren achieve the same thing without a tunnel.
Obviously it's about what the exhaust does or doesn't do.
Oh, I think you're correct. What I mean is that the fact that the tunnel exists has lead to a lot of theories that have just muddied the water.

My opinion is that the philosophy of the RB's rear end is in conflict with McLaren's exhaust solution, and the 'bridge', which is what's important, was Newey's strategy of resolving that conflict and keeping the airflows separate. It didn't seem to have worked.

I think the RB has worked so well ever since it's conception several years ago because it is terribly efficient at cleanly drawing in air from the side of the car back inboard and over the diffuser. And in the past, the exhausts have worked in unison with the design. Even last year, Newey was able to bring the exhaust outlet right to the wheel well so that it wouldn't interfere with this flow.

But now Newey's being asked to lob the exhaust right through this flow if he wants to get it to the side of the diffuser, and as you can imagine, the two flows are interfering with each other, not allowing either to work effectively. The bridge, imo, was a hail mary pass to keep the two flows separate, but I don't think it's working for them. The sidepod air is driving the exhaust flow back and the exhaust flow and the bridge are suffocating the sidepod flow to the rear. Lose-lose.

I think the McLaren works better simply because they were never as good as Newey at getting the sidepod air over the diffuser and so were less dependent on it and less concerned about their new exhaust disrupting that flow.

f1ssk
f1ssk
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Joined: 19 May 2010, 04:02

Re: Red Bull RB8 Renault

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Hey.. I was wondering ... :!:
Drag is basically the the low pressure at the rear of the car and the diffuser helps to efficiently smooth the flow to reduce the low pressure at the back.
The wheels are right in the middle of the flow and are a large part of the drag. Is the referred "sealing" the diffuse actually providing higher mass flow to the back of the wheels to reduce that low pressure.?

Also, another thing with the wheel, since its rotating at such rpms , Is it possible to design the wheel rims to act as a vacuum cleaner and suck the air below the diffuser and increase the low pressure there? Some form of sealing the gap between the wheel and diffuse , so as to ensure that the air is not drawn from the upper side(high pressure) of the diffuse.

these are all very conceptual and I do not know if the rules prevent this or even if it is practically doable ? it will nice to et some feedbak . thanks in advance.

bhall
bhall
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Joined: 28 Feb 2006, 21:26

Re: Red Bull RB8 Renault

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No, really, have I?

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MIKEY_!
7
Joined: 10 Jul 2011, 03:07

Re: Red Bull RB8 Renault

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Wonder how long it will be before Red Bull try this solution. They are half way there already.
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Adrian Newby
Adrian Newby
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Joined: 07 Feb 2012, 23:05

Re: Red Bull RB8 Renault

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Jimi_Hendrix_1967 wrote:Can some of you explain how long the running time is designing and manufacturing on an update red bull introduced last week? Some people in the f2012 thread seem angry why Ferrari cant produce such in 3 weeks time. :)
I saw an interview with Christian Horner saying something to the effect of "The updates you are seeing today were begun a month ago". And he was talking about the new exhaust.

kilcoo316
kilcoo316
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Joined: 09 Mar 2005, 16:45
Location: Kilcoo, Ireland

Re: Red Bull RB8 Renault

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Adrian Newby wrote:I saw an interview with Christian Horner saying something to the effect of "The updates you are seeing today were begun a month ago". And he was talking about the new exhaust.
I have to say, I'm somewhat surprised! I'd have thought they would have spent longer gearing the design around the exhausts. Its a pretty fundamental change in position to only have started a month ago.


Unless it was a month in manufacturing?

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FrukostScones
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Location: European Union

Re: Red Bull RB8 Renault

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bhallg2k wrote:I don't think such a split is intended; there are simpler ways to accomplish that goal, though I can't imagine why you'd want it.

(What are these?)
Image
I don't know. Maybe they are in connection with the rumored DRS activated rear wing f-duct.
(you see also one on the main plane).
thomin wrote:Well, here's the latest AMuS article on the issue:
http://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/form ... 68262.html

Unfortunately, it's still somewhat vague. I'll translate the relevant part:

...One could activate the F-duct with the same button that activates DRS. Not legal? Sure is. AMuS has investigated and found out that it's possible under certain conditions.

The rules allow the button to have secondary or tertiary functions, as long as their activation lies behind the FIA-interface and is operated by the same mechanism [as DRS]. He who adjusts the flap on the rear wing hydraulically must therefore also activate the F-duct hydraulically.
On Mercedes main plane:
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Finishing races is important, but racing is more important.

Crucial_Xtreme
Crucial_Xtreme
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Joined: 16 Oct 2011, 00:13
Location: Charlotte

Re: Red Bull RB8 Renault

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bhallg2k wrote:I don't think such a split is intended; there are simpler ways to accomplish that goal, though I can't imagine why you'd want it.

(What are these?)
Hydraulic connections for the DRS.
Last edited by Crucial_Xtreme on 11 Mar 2012, 23:24, edited 1 time in total.

bhall
bhall
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Joined: 28 Feb 2006, 21:26

Re: Red Bull RB8 Renault

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Crucial_Xtreme wrote:Hydraulic connections for the DRS.
Hmm. Interesting that Mercedes has placed all of them on the main plane of the rear wing, whilst Red Bull has them split between the main plane and the beam wing. I wonder why Mercedes is seemingly so keen on the internal structure of their beam wing being uncluttered. Hmm.

A question for another time and another place.

(Michael Caine's voice recited those words in my head as I typed them. I don't know why.)

Of all the comments I've made that were removed from this thread, this one is still here? Classic.
Last edited by bhall on 12 Mar 2012, 17:51, edited 1 time in total.

Adrian Newby
Adrian Newby
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Joined: 07 Feb 2012, 23:05

Re: Red Bull RB8 Renault

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Crucial_Xtreme wrote:
Adrian Newby wrote:If their EBD doesn't work well enough, Red Bull are more fully invested in it than the other teams and will pay a larger price for their mis-step.
Actually if it doesn't work as well as they intended it to, I think they'll revert back to the launch position and probably be fine. It seemed to work well. It's nice to have options.
Yes, but there is the opportunity cost to consider as well. They will have lost all of the time and effort they could have been applying to something else. And since it seems (to me anyway) that they have put more into getting EBD to work than the others, they will have lost more as well.

Crucial_Xtreme
Crucial_Xtreme
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Joined: 16 Oct 2011, 00:13
Location: Charlotte

Re: Red Bull RB8 Renault

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bhallg2k wrote:
Crucial_Xtreme wrote:Hydraulic connections for the DRS.
Hmm. Interesting that Mercedes has placed all of them on the main plane of the rear wing, whilst Red Bull has them split between the main plane and the beam wing. I wonder why Mercedes is seemingly so keen on the internal structure of their beam wing being uncluttered. Hmm.

A question for another time and another place.

(Michael Caine's voice recited those words in my head as I typed them. I don't know why.)
I actually asked Scarbs what those were & he said DRS hydraulics for the RB & for the Merc the supposed F-Duct RW thing, but of course he is as skeptical as many. I agree it's interesting placement.