2017 Russian Grand Prix - Sochi Autodrom, April 28-30

For ease of use, there is one thread per grand prix where you can discuss everything during that specific GP weekend. You can find these threads here.
User avatar
Chene_Mostert
23
Joined: Sun Mar 30, 2014 3:50 pm

Re: 2017 Russian Grand Prix - Sochi Autodrom, April 28-30

Post

GPR-A wrote:
Tue May 02, 2017 1:32 pm
Mandrake wrote:
Tue May 02, 2017 1:03 pm
GPR-A wrote:
Sun Apr 30, 2017 4:44 pm
Well, using the logic of the Ferrari fans from the past races, "The faster car won today" and that was not Ferrari. Rest everything is just excuses.

Honestly speaking, how was Ferrari faster? Bottas made a good start, kept getting away at the start and he was MAINTAINING the gap of 5 seconds in the first stint. Everytime Vettel put a faster lap, Bottas responded. That doesn't suggest to me that it was Ferrari who was faster. They ONLY SEEMED FASTER at the end because of Vettel pitting later and having 7 laps fresher set of tyres and Bottas made mistake and screwed up his tyres with a massive flat spot. With 8 MPH slower throughout the race on speed traps and doing nothing extraordinary in S2 or S3 in the first stint when situation was same for both cars while carrying race load, if someone says Ferrari was faster, that means, you did not pay attention to details.
I said overall the faster car. On the Ultrasofts Vettel was not able to extract the same performance from the tires as Bottas was, but he held so much more tire life in it. After Bottas Pitstop Vettel was able to stay on Bottas pace with the old tires. And then when he switched to the super softs he just flew towards Bottas. Bottas on the other hand was pushing to stay ahead as indicated by his error and the tension in his radio call. Had Vettel passed Bottas, he would have sailed away. This for me indicates that the Ferrari was the faster car on both tires combined - all down to the tire performance of course with the Ferrari making much better use of them....
Bottas pitted on lap 27 and here are the times that he was doing after pitting.

http://www.fia.com/file/56375/download?token=mEvXTTDr

27 P 1:43.462
28 1:58.224
29 1:38.171
30 1:38.208
31 1:38.160
32 1:38.704
33 1:39.169
34 1:38.426
35 1:37.978
36 1:38.041
37 1:37.856
38 1:39.193
39 1:38.493
40 1:38.473
41 1:38.776
42 1:38.754
43 1:38.197
44 1:38.236
45 1:37.815
46 1:37.794
47 1:37.793
48 1:37.576
49 1:37.367
50 1:37.742
51 1:37.980
52 1:38.871

And here are Vettel's laptimes.
27 1:39.334
28 1:39.192
29 1:38.828
30 1:38.291
31 1:38.347
32 1:38.306
33 1:38.553
34 P 1:43.112
35 1:58.663
36 1:37.699
37 1:37.565
38 1:38.214
39 1:37.692
40 1:38.067
41 1:38.431
42 1:38.683
43 1:38.217
44 1:38.735
45 1:37.630
46 1:37.373
47 1:37.897
48 1:37.329
49 1:37.312
50 1:37.493
51 1:37.832
52 1:38.728

After pitting, on lap 34, Vettel started doing high 1:37.xxx on fresh set of SS tyres and Bottas did 1:37.9xx on Lap 35 (on 8 lap old SS tyres). On lap 36, Bottas made a mistake and flat spotted his tyres and lost a second on that lap. Subsequently, he kept losing time behind back markers (Magnussen and Kvyat) and that was almost 7 to 8 tenths a lap. Once Bottas cleared the backmarkers by 45th lap, he started doing 1m37.xxx again. One second faster than what he was doing until 44th lap, which clearly shows how much he was losing behind the back markers. After that, Bottas was doing same time as what Vettel was doing, on much older and flat spotted tires.

So that is why, I don't believe Ferrari was faster. You know, devil is in the details. :)
But Vettel did : 1:38.XX before his pitstop on used US, matching Botas on New tyres? Like you said devil is in the details.
"Science at its best is an open-minded method of inquiry, not a belief system." - Rupert Sheldrake

User avatar
turbof1
Moderator
Joined: Thu Jul 19, 2012 8:36 pm
Location: MountDoom CFD Matrix

Re: 2017 Russian Grand Prix - Sochi Autodrom, April 28-30

Post

Mercedes didn't do a better job per se. The race was won at the start. And because the US and SS had a large cross over period, where performance of old US is still identical to new SS performance, undercutting was no longer an option. So the car in front always would have a massive advantage.

What is frightening however is that a struggling Hamilton with a cilinder randomly cutting out due temperature was still able to cut out a large gap to Verstappen. We have 2 teams lonely on the mountain with everybody else remaining at sea level.
#AeroFrodo

User avatar
Chene_Mostert
23
Joined: Sun Mar 30, 2014 3:50 pm

Re: 2017 Russian Grand Prix - Sochi Autodrom, April 28-30

Post

turbof1 wrote:
Tue May 02, 2017 3:33 pm
Mercedes didn't do a better job per se. The race was won at the start. And because the US and SS had a large cross over period, where performance of old US is still identical to new SS performance, undercutting was no longer an option. So the car in front always would have a massive advantage.

What is frightening however is that a struggling Hamilton with a cilinder randomly cutting out due temperature was still able to cut out a large gap to Verstappen. We have 2 teams lonely on the mountain with everybody else remaining at sea level.
Yes, The field spread from top two teams to the rest is a concern, I hope this was track specific. If not, I don't think The RB B-spec car will close the gap enough to bother the top 2 teams.
"Science at its best is an open-minded method of inquiry, not a belief system." - Rupert Sheldrake

Hammerfist
Hammerfist
5
Joined: Thu Apr 06, 2017 3:18 am

Re: 2017 Russian Grand Prix - Sochi Autodrom, April 28-30

Post

Mandrake wrote:
Tue May 02, 2017 1:03 pm
GPR-A wrote:
Sun Apr 30, 2017 4:44 pm
Mandrake wrote:
Sun Apr 30, 2017 4:35 pm
So overall the Ferrari again was the faster car, just
Well, using the logic of the Ferrari fans from the past races, "The faster car won today" and that was not Ferrari. Rest everything is just excuses.

Honestly speaking, how was Ferrari faster? Bottas made a good start, kept getting away at the start and he was MAINTAINING the gap of 5 seconds in the first stint. Everytime Vettel put a faster lap, Bottas responded. That doesn't suggest to me that it was Ferrari who was faster. They ONLY SEEMED FASTER at the end because of Vettel pitting later and having 7 laps fresher set of tyres and Bottas made mistake and screwed up his tyres with a massive flat spot. With 8 MPH slower throughout the race on speed traps and doing nothing extraordinary in S2 or S3 in the first stint when situation was same for both cars while carrying race load, if someone says Ferrari was faster, that means, you did not pay attention to details.
I said overall the faster car. On the Ultrasofts Vettel was not able to extract the same performance from the tires as Bottas was, but he held so much more tire life in it. After Bottas Pitstop Vettel was able to stay on Bottas pace with the old tires. And then when he switched to the super softs he just flew towards Bottas. Bottas on the other hand was pushing to stay ahead as indicated by his error and the tension in his radio call. Had Vettel passed Bottas, he would have sailed away. This for me indicates that the Ferrari was the faster car on both tires combined - all down to the tire performance of course with the Ferrari making much better use of them....
I agree. Ferrari seems quicker over a race distance. Reason is that they preserve tires better. Merc might have more ultimate pace but if they cant sustain it over a stint as well as Ferrari they are going to come second often.

Hammerfist
Hammerfist
5
Joined: Thu Apr 06, 2017 3:18 am

Re: 2017 Russian Grand Prix - Sochi Autodrom, April 28-30

Post

turbof1 wrote:
Tue May 02, 2017 3:33 pm
Mercedes didn't do a better job per se. The race was won at the start. And because the US and SS had a large cross over period, where performance of old US is still identical to new SS performance, undercutting was no longer an option. So the car in front always would have a massive advantage.

What is frightening however is that a struggling Hamilton with a cilinder randomly cutting out due temperature was still able to cut out a large gap to Verstappen. We have 2 teams lonely on the mountain with everybody else remaining at sea level.
Vettel started going one second faster when he put the ss on. So i dont think we can really say old us and new ss were identical.

User avatar
nevill3
30
Joined: Tue Feb 11, 2014 8:31 pm
Location: Monaco

Re: 2017 Russian Grand Prix - Sochi Autodrom, April 28-30

Post

turbof1 wrote:
Tue May 02, 2017 3:33 pm
..........

What is frightening however is that a struggling Hamilton with a cilinder randomly cutting out due temperature was still able to cut out a large gap to Verstappen. We have 2 teams lonely on the mountain with everybody else remaining at sea level.
I have not read anywhere about Hamilton's engine losing a cylinder randomly, do you have a link to the source for this please
Sent from my Commodore PET in 1978

dans79
dans79
291
Joined: Sun Mar 03, 2013 6:33 pm
Location: USA

Re: 2017 Russian Grand Prix - Sochi Autodrom, April 28-30

Post

nevill3 wrote:
Tue May 02, 2017 4:48 pm
I have not read anywhere about Hamilton's engine losing a cylinder randomly, do you have a link to the source for this please
https://www.jamesallenonf1.com/2017/05/ ... ghlighted/
The overheating issue forced Hamilton to run in clean air, maximising cooling airflow into the radiators, so running in a car’s wake was all but impossible and Hamilton held back.

“From probably, I don’t know what lap, five or whatever it was, I had to slow down and stay in fourth. Lots of turning down of the settings and unit. One of the cylinders was cutting [out] because of the temperature issue, so it was going to be fourth from very early on,” he said.

This may not have affected team-mate Bottas because he ran in cleaner air throughout the race, but puzzlingly, when Bottas hit traffic he didn’t complain of engine overheating and the freak issue was reserved only for Hamilton.
167 99 96 7

User avatar
nevill3
30
Joined: Tue Feb 11, 2014 8:31 pm
Location: Monaco

Re: 2017 Russian Grand Prix - Sochi Autodrom, April 28-30

Post

Thanks for the link,

It also contained an interesting quote from Toto.....
Team boss Toto Wolff took some blame, having said at the end of the race, “[Bottas] struggled with a car that was not perfect towards the end but he kept it together. And Lewis, if you don’t put the tyre in the right window you’re struggling and we were unable to give him a car that was good enough today.”
Do you think he was referring to Botass' flat spotted tyres or was there another issue we were not aware of?
Sent from my Commodore PET in 1978

dans79
dans79
291
Joined: Sun Mar 03, 2013 6:33 pm
Location: USA

Re: 2017 Russian Grand Prix - Sochi Autodrom, April 28-30

Post

nevill3 wrote:
Tue May 02, 2017 5:00 pm
Thanks for the link,

It also contained an interesting quote from Toto.....
Team boss Toto Wolff took some blame, having said at the end of the race, “[Bottas] struggled with a car that was not perfect towards the end but he kept it together. And Lewis, if you don’t put the tyre in the right window you’re struggling and we were unable to give him a car that was good enough today.”
Do you think he was referring to Botass' flat spotted tyres or was there another issue we were not aware of?
I think he was referring to Lewis's set-up issues, but it's hard to tell from the quote.
167 99 96 7

basti313
basti313
55
Joined: Sat Feb 22, 2014 1:49 pm

Re: 2017 Russian Grand Prix - Sochi Autodrom, April 28-30

Post

dans79 wrote:
Tue May 02, 2017 4:52 pm
nevill3 wrote:
Tue May 02, 2017 4:48 pm
I have not read anywhere about Hamilton's engine losing a cylinder randomly, do you have a link to the source for this please
https://www.jamesallenonf1.com/2017/05/ ... ghlighted/
The overheating issue forced Hamilton to run in clean air, maximising cooling airflow into the radiators, so running in a car’s wake was all but impossible and Hamilton held back.

“From probably, I don’t know what lap, five or whatever it was, I had to slow down and stay in fourth. Lots of turning down of the settings and unit. One of the cylinders was cutting [out] because of the temperature issue, so it was going to be fourth from very early on,” he said.

This may not have affected team-mate Bottas because he ran in cleaner air throughout the race, but puzzlingly, when Bottas hit traffic he didn’t complain of engine overheating and the freak issue was reserved only for Hamilton.
This is a quite odd story. There are reports about Ham claiming the cut-outs caused the overheating and there are reports Ham claiming that the overheating caused cut-outs.
But if you look at the team radio there is absolutely no correlation. Furthermore it may more reflect to the clipping, which also other drivers like Ver had.

basti313
basti313
55
Joined: Sat Feb 22, 2014 1:49 pm

Re: 2017 Russian Grand Prix - Sochi Autodrom, April 28-30

Post

Hammerfist wrote:
Tue May 02, 2017 4:04 pm
turbof1 wrote:
Tue May 02, 2017 3:33 pm
Mercedes didn't do a better job per se. The race was won at the start. And because the US and SS had a large cross over period, where performance of old US is still identical to new SS performance, undercutting was no longer an option. So the car in front always would have a massive advantage.

What is frightening however is that a struggling Hamilton with a cilinder randomly cutting out due temperature was still able to cut out a large gap to Verstappen. We have 2 teams lonely on the mountain with everybody else remaining at sea level.
Vettel started going one second faster when he put the ss on. So i dont think we can really say old us and new ss were identical.
Both Vettel and Bottas had rather poor outlaps. Especially the middle sector was not good at all. I do not think that an undercut could work at all with the tires needing one lap to warm up.
Furthermore both drivers finished their tires...the inlap was also rather bad for both of them. Looking at the sector times I do not see any good strategic possibilities for Vet.

Edax
Edax
63
Joined: Tue Apr 08, 2014 9:47 pm

Re: 2017 Russian Grand Prix - Sochi Autodrom, April 28-30

Post

basti313 wrote:
Tue May 02, 2017 8:55 pm
dans79 wrote:
Tue May 02, 2017 4:52 pm
nevill3 wrote:
Tue May 02, 2017 4:48 pm
I have not read anywhere about Hamilton's engine losing a cylinder randomly, do you have a link to the source for this please
The overheating issue.....
This is a quite odd story. There are reports about Ham claiming the cut-outs caused the overheating and there are reports Ham claiming that the overheating caused cut-outs.
But if you look at the team radio there is absolutely no correlation. Furthermore it may more reflect to the clipping, which also other drivers like Ver had.
Then there was also a post race statement from Hamilton that during the race they figured out why they were slow all weekend and that it would be resolved for Spain. That almost sound that there was something wrong with the car in Q as well and they only found the cause during the race.

User avatar
Shrieker
55
Joined: Mon Mar 01, 2010 10:41 pm

Re: 2017 Russian Grand Prix - Sochi Autodrom, April 28-30

Post

My god what a boring race (except for the pit stop battles, and the tension in the end), but we have a new race winner. Bottas did a great job by grabbing the lead from third on the grid, and keeping it till the end with no mistakes. The backmarkers were tricky sometimes, but he handled everything in his way between him and the win like boss.

Hamilton... Well, what can i say. One could argue his off weekends like this one last year in Bakü and Singapore cost him the title. It was dismal. He can't afford these if he wants to stay in the title fight.
Education is that which allows a nation free, independent, reputable life, and function as a high society; or it condemns it to captivity and poverty.
-Atatürk

Sonador
Sonador
8
Joined: Fri May 06, 2016 4:26 pm

Re: 2017 Russian Grand Prix - Sochi Autodrom, April 28-30

Post

I am really surprised with Bottas this past GP, what a comeback after the GP in Bahrain.

Hopefully he wil continue the upwards trend, and make a good battle with the Ferrari's and Hamilton.
Towards the guys who call Hamilton average: "WTF?"

I dont get it ....

What did he ever do to you, to get that sort of (imo) BS critisism?

#-o

Wass85
Wass85
-3
Joined: Wed Mar 01, 2017 9:11 pm

Re: 2017 Russian Grand Prix - Sochi Autodrom, April 28-30

Post

Edax wrote:
Tue May 02, 2017 11:12 pm
basti313 wrote:
Tue May 02, 2017 8:55 pm
dans79 wrote:
Tue May 02, 2017 4:52 pm

This is a quite odd story. There are reports about Ham claiming the cut-outs caused the overheating and there are reports Ham claiming that the overheating caused cut-outs.
But if you look at the team radio there is absolutely no correlation. Furthermore it may more reflect to the clipping, which also other drivers like Ver had.
Then there was also a post race statement from Hamilton that during the race they figured out why they were slow all weekend and that it would be resolved for Spain. That almost sound that there was something wrong with the car in Q as well and they only found the cause during the race.
Hamilton said he has an idea why but nothing definite, I don't feel confident it will be resolved for Spain. He had trouble in S3 all weekend and could just not get on top of it.