2017 Spanish Grand Prix - Catalunya, 12-14 May

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GPR-A duplicate2
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Re: 2017 Spanish Grand Prix - Catalunya, 12-14 May

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Just_a_fan wrote:
Thu May 04, 2017 5:41 pm
GPR-A wrote:
Thu May 04, 2017 3:43 pm
Well, what I read in that regard was that, they were unable to put as much rake on the current car, that is longer wheel base. When they tried on this car, they lost as much as over a second and hence, had to keep the rake down. Even lower than the predecessors. Can you please point me out to the source you read?
From http://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/form ... isch%29%29
This is the Google translation which is a bit rough to read. They tried high angle but lost too much performance so they went long wheelbase instead.
Mercedes has tried it in the early phase of the concept, but has fallen on the nose during the first wind tunnel tests and CFD simulations. "We immediately lost up to 60 points downforce," says an engineer. This made it clear: the risk of pursuing this path is too great. So a substitute solution had to come. And that is the long wheelbase.
The Mercedes grew between the wheels from 3,500 to 3,760 millimeters. In comparison, the Red Bull is shorter by 20 centimeters at 3,557 millimeters. Because at the Mercedes the side boxes relative to the sternVideo BMW M4 Mercedes-AMG C 63 S early in , this creates a lot of free space on the undersurface as far as the diffuser. That brings downforce. And extra space to capture and reorientate the entanglement of the front wing and front wheels.
That is why the baffles on the silver arrow are so complex. An engineer tells us: "The risk with the long wheelbase was lower for us than with the big angle of attack. We will have to accept a few disadvantages on narrow routes, but have a much better aerodynamic platform. "
Thank you very much. I stand corrected.

George-Jung
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Re: 2017 Spanish Grand Prix - Catalunya, 12-14 May

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GPR-A wrote:
Thu May 04, 2017 6:01 pm
Just_a_fan wrote:
Thu May 04, 2017 5:41 pm
GPR-A wrote:
Thu May 04, 2017 3:43 pm
Well, what I read in that regard was that, they were unable to put as much rake on the current car, that is longer wheel base. When they tried on this car, they lost as much as over a second and hence, had to keep the rake down. Even lower than the predecessors. Can you please point me out to the source you read?
From http://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/form ... isch%29%29
This is the Google translation which is a bit rough to read. They tried high angle but lost too much performance so they went long wheelbase instead.
Mercedes has tried it in the early phase of the concept, but has fallen on the nose during the first wind tunnel tests and CFD simulations. "We immediately lost up to 60 points downforce," says an engineer. This made it clear: the risk of pursuing this path is too great. So a substitute solution had to come. And that is the long wheelbase.
The Mercedes grew between the wheels from 3,500 to 3,760 millimeters. In comparison, the Red Bull is shorter by 20 centimeters at 3,557 millimeters. Because at the Mercedes the side boxes relative to the sternVideo BMW M4 Mercedes-AMG C 63 S early in , this creates a lot of free space on the undersurface as far as the diffuser. That brings downforce. And extra space to capture and reorientate the entanglement of the front wing and front wheels.
That is why the baffles on the silver arrow are so complex. An engineer tells us: "The risk with the long wheelbase was lower for us than with the big angle of attack. We will have to accept a few disadvantages on narrow routes, but have a much better aerodynamic platform. "
Thank you very much. I stand corrected.
Reading the above; Could you say that because the RB is so much shorter.. they lost about 60points of downforce as the article mentions.. so that is the reason why they are ao far behind..

And that the B-Spec will be a longer wheelbase version.. and not so much a big change in wings and winglets etc...?

Just_a_fan
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Re: 2017 Spanish Grand Prix - Catalunya, 12-14 May

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No, I don't think you can say that because Mercedes struggled with a high rake angle, RedBull must also have done so. RedBull have developed their car over the last few seasons to run large rakes. Mercedes didn't. RedBull have a handle on the principles involved, Mercedes less so.
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PlatinumZealot
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Re: 2017 Spanish Grand Prix - Catalunya, 12-14 May

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I hope mercedes give Hamilton a working car this race. Whatever they gave him in sochi was an absolute lemon.
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LH44

f1316
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Re: 2017 Spanish Grand Prix - Catalunya, 12-14 May

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The thing is that the Ferrari does run with a lot of rake and has a lot of downforce/similar (slightly longer) wheelbase as the Red Bull. So really they are the point of comparison rather than Red Bull (at least right now).

FYI there was a 1:19 by Vettel in testing on softs in testing - with some suggestion he may have been playing games on that lap too - so in theory you would expect a 1:18 in qualifying given development since then.

Still, they never seem to go as fast as in testing, so maybe not

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WaikeCU
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Re: 2017 Spanish Grand Prix - Catalunya, 12-14 May

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PlatinumZealot wrote:
Fri May 05, 2017 3:04 am
I hope mercedes give Hamilton a working car this race. Whatever they gave him in sochi was an absolute lemon.
Meaning, he squeezed everything out of that half working car in Sochi? (pun intended) :P

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turbof1
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Re: 2017 Spanish Grand Prix - Catalunya, 12-14 May

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PlatinumZealot wrote:
Fri May 05, 2017 3:04 am
I hope mercedes give Hamilton a working car this race. Whatever they gave him in sochi was an absolute lemon.
They gave him a very similar setup to Bottas. He just was not able to switch it on.
#AeroFrodo

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ME4ME
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Re: 2017 Spanish Grand Prix - Catalunya, 12-14 May

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turbof1 wrote:
Fri May 05, 2017 10:14 am
PlatinumZealot wrote:
Fri May 05, 2017 3:04 am
I hope mercedes give Hamilton a working car this race. Whatever they gave him in sochi was an absolute lemon.
They gave him a very similar setup to Bottas. He just was not able to switch it on.
Also it's now confirmed that Lewis accepted his defeat and did the wise thing which was to turn the engine down:

https://youtu.be/xdkVO0tuVvg?t=6m33s

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FrukostScones
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Re: 2017 Spanish Grand Prix - Catalunya, 12-14 May

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i put my money on Verstappen, again :mrgreen:
Finishing races is important, but racing is more important.

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ME4ME
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Re: 2017 Spanish Grand Prix - Catalunya, 12-14 May

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FrukostScones wrote:
Fri May 05, 2017 3:51 pm
i put my money on Verstappen, again :mrgreen:
We'll see which one of us earns to most then, if any :wink:

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ClarkBT11
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Re: 2017 Spanish Grand Prix - Catalunya, 12-14 May

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f1316 wrote:
Fri May 05, 2017 7:54 am
The thing is that the Ferrari does run with a lot of rake and has a lot of downforce/similar (slightly longer) wheelbase as the Red Bull. So really they are the point of comparison rather than Red Bull (at least right now).

FYI there was a 1:19 by Vettel in testing on softs in testing - with some suggestion he may have been playing games on that lap too - so in theory you would expect a 1:18 in qualifying given development since then.

Still, they never seem to go as fast as in testing, so maybe not
What about the colder temperatures in testing? Track temperatures were 25 were the race temps are more likely to be in the 40's. I think we'll be seeing low 19.XXX. Given the air would be denser in the tests as well meaning more downforce we won't be seeing faster times than testing.

f1316
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Re: 2017 Spanish Grand Prix - Catalunya, 12-14 May

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Right, like I say, they usually go slower in qualifying than testing - owing to different climactic conditions, almost certainly.

But the fact they weren't running flat out (literally taking feet off accelerators) and the development since means I think they'll break into the 18's, but still totally take your point.

Sevach
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Re: 2017 Spanish Grand Prix - Catalunya, 12-14 May

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There's the cooler temps and the loads of rubber from people doing over a 100 laps a day for 8 days.

Raikkonen 1,18:3, didn't lift and had SS on.
I doubt we are going to see something better than this.

Manoah2u
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Re: 2017 Spanish Grand Prix - Catalunya, 12-14 May

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Mclaren will spoon in a one-off-experimental 'super-engine' that is built to last only 1 race and not a mile more than the entire grand prix distance, and will be so powerfull that despite getting a grid penalty for changing engine after qually, he'll rocket through the entire field and win the Spanish GP with a 50 second lead on Vettel, and after passing the finish line, the engine will decompose itself after 100 m's. there will still be enough fuel in the engine so there can't be any punishments.

Mclaren will do so for the remainder of the season and Alonso becomes WDC in 2017 with Mclaren.

HA!

one can dream.
Dumpster sounds so much more classy. It's the diamond of the cesspools.

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Andres125sx
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Re: 2017 Spanish Grand Prix - Catalunya, 12-14 May

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Vasconia wrote:
Wed May 03, 2017 10:31 am
BosF1 wrote:
Wed May 03, 2017 10:12 am
hollus wrote:
Tue May 02, 2017 8:32 pm
A prediction: For the first time we will see cars choosing to pit because they cannot get close enough to the car they are supposed to lap. In some conditions, people will lose pace to the extent that they will be unable to get within 1 second of the car they are trying to lap, and thus they'll get no blue flags.
And I think this (having to choose pitting to get out of lapped traffic) will happen more than once.
IMHO ;-)
It's nice to have this downforce dependency back, isn't it? :wink: :lol:

We got the best drivers in the world, in the fastest cornering cars ever build, yet they aren't able to closely follow each other because of that downforce. Indeed, it will be easier to overtake by going for the undercut, hence less overtaking on track and more via strategy / pit stops. It's 2004 all over again. How many races do you think we have before the average viewer starts noticing that races have become more dull because of lack of overtaking?
I dont see so many complains thanks to the close fight between Ferrari and Mercedes. Just only imagine 2015´s season with these cars, it would be the epitom of boredom. :o
I wouldn´t say fight, but parity :wink:

This season similar cars simply can´t fight, they have problems to become within 1 second of a lapped car, imagine if it´s not a lapped car but a car with a similar pace...

This is going to be, togheter with past Russian GP, one of the most boring GPs ever


Maybe some car will be close to some other, but it will be similar to Imola 05, people at the edge of their chairs assuming they´re watching a fight while in the real world they both were cruising because an overtake is out of reach and only a mistake from the car in front can make it possible, so his driver is just cruising to avoid any mistake, and the car behind is doing 2 seconds slower laptimes than possible but without any chance to overtake

This is current F1 #-o