Mercedes-AMG F1 W10 EQ Power+

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krizalid1001
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Re: Mercedes-AMG F1 W10 EQ Power+

Post by krizalid1001 » Fri Apr 12, 2019 2:43 pm

Further informations about the new FW issue :

https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/merc ... a/4368992/

So, according to the source, Merc raced an already modified and legal FW on both FP1/2

Mercedes had to modify its new front wing prior to opening practice for the Chinese GP following an FIA ruling that it did not comply with the rules.
After the changes made, Mercedes ran in an approved configuration for both sessions

dans79
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Re: Mercedes-AMG F1 W10 EQ Power+

Post by dans79 » Fri Apr 12, 2019 2:48 pm

subcritical71 wrote:
Fri Apr 12, 2019 2:33 pm
dans79 wrote:
Fri Apr 12, 2019 1:45 pm
From what I have read, the changes have nothing to do with flaps, and everything to do with the shape of the leading edge. I'd add I don't see anything in the technical FIA documents for the weekend requiring a change, thus I think some of the press are jumping to conclusions.

https://www.racefans.net/2019/04/12/why ... g-designs/
It's hard to see how that rule was 'missed'. But that should be an easy fix and not have much of an impact, if any, on their weekend.

Yea, it should be pretty strait forward.


I've also looked over the latest revision of the technical regulations and I don't see any rule about the end-plate covering the wing elements. to be be fare, the rules regarding then end-plates are horrendously written, and not very clear.

https://www.fia.com/file/78015/download/26184

GPR -A
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Re: Mercedes-AMG F1 W10 EQ Power+

Post by GPR -A » Fri Apr 12, 2019 3:34 pm

dans79 wrote:
Fri Apr 12, 2019 2:48 pm
subcritical71 wrote:
Fri Apr 12, 2019 2:33 pm
dans79 wrote:
Fri Apr 12, 2019 1:45 pm
From what I have read, the changes have nothing to do with flaps, and everything to do with the shape of the leading edge. I'd add I don't see anything in the technical FIA documents for the weekend requiring a change, thus I think some of the press are jumping to conclusions.

https://www.racefans.net/2019/04/12/why ... g-designs/
It's hard to see how that rule was 'missed'. But that should be an easy fix and not have much of an impact, if any, on their weekend.

Yea, it should be pretty strait forward.


I've also looked over the latest revision of the technical regulations and I don't see any rule about the end-plate covering the wing elements. to be be fare, the rules regarding then end-plates are horrendously written, and not very clear.

https://www.fia.com/file/78015/download/26184
https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/merc ... a/4368992/
After the changes made, Mercedes ran in an approved configuration for both sessions - Valtteri Bottas headed FP2 fractions ahead of Ferrari's Sebastian Vettel.

Polite
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Re: Mercedes-AMG F1 W10 EQ Power+

Post by Polite » Fri Apr 12, 2019 3:39 pm

dans79 wrote:
Fri Apr 12, 2019 2:48 pm
subcritical71 wrote:
Fri Apr 12, 2019 2:33 pm
dans79 wrote:
Fri Apr 12, 2019 1:45 pm
From what I have read, the changes have nothing to do with flaps, and everything to do with the shape of the leading edge. I'd add I don't see anything in the technical FIA documents for the weekend requiring a change, thus I think some of the press are jumping to conclusions.

https://www.racefans.net/2019/04/12/why ... g-designs/
It's hard to see how that rule was 'missed'. But that should be an easy fix and not have much of an impact, if any, on their weekend.

Yea, it should be pretty strait forward.


I've also looked over the latest revision of the technical regulations and I don't see any rule about the end-plate covering the wing elements. to be be fare, the rules regarding then end-plates are horrendously written, and not very clear.

https://www.fia.com/file/78015/download/26184
There has been a technical directive during the last week against this kind of endplates of the Fw (when the endplate is not vertical and cant cover flaps from the lateral view)!
That directive was written first of all for the Fw of Rbr and Williams from the first 2 races... Infact also Rbr has a new modified Fw with a "legal" endplate in China.
https://it.motorsport.com/f1/news/merce ... 2/4368912/

Mercs ofc know what they are doing.. Maybe they have this FW ready before the technical directive and they wanted to test it in real anyway.

Motorsport.it and Piola confirm they run this Fw in Fp1.. (while dening it on the press..but its clearly visible in TV) and now they can study the data gathered.

This wing is a cross point between Ferrari and their original aero concept, as Amus said.

dans79
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Re: Mercedes-AMG F1 W10 EQ Power+

Post by dans79 » Fri Apr 12, 2019 4:12 pm

Polite wrote:
Fri Apr 12, 2019 3:39 pm
Motorsport.it and Piola confirm they run this Fw in Fp1.. (while dening it on the press..but its clearly visible in TV) and now they can study the data gathered.
That's pretty unlikely, because if they where told Thursday they had to make changes to stay legal, then running it anyway in FP1 would be illegal per the sporting regulations.
3.2 Competitors must ensure that their cars comply with the conditions of eligibility and safety
throughout practice and the race.

Polite
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Re: Mercedes-AMG F1 W10 EQ Power+

Post by Polite » Fri Apr 12, 2019 4:22 pm

dans79 wrote:
Fri Apr 12, 2019 4:12 pm
Polite wrote:
Fri Apr 12, 2019 3:39 pm
Motorsport.it and Piola confirm they run this Fw in Fp1.. (while dening it on the press..but its clearly visible in TV) and now they can study the data gathered.
That's pretty unlikely, because if they where told Thursday they had to make changes to stay legal, then running it anyway in FP1 would be illegal per the sporting regulations.
3.2 Competitors must ensure that their cars comply with the conditions of eligibility and safety
throughout practice and the race.
Really..that sounds strange also to me.
But there is a photo in which Tombazis is looking at a new Merc FW with the endplate clearly no legal (endplats dont cover flaps from lateral view)
see it (from Piola)
https://imgur.com/a/Tps68wr (modified my me..)

dans79
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Re: Mercedes-AMG F1 W10 EQ Power+

Post by dans79 » Fri Apr 12, 2019 4:28 pm

Polite wrote:
Fri Apr 12, 2019 4:22 pm
Really..that sounds strange also to me.
But there is a photo in which Tombazis is looking at a new Merc FW with the endplate clearly no legal (endplats dont cover flaps from lateral view)
see it (from Piola)
https://imgur.com/a/Tps68wr (modified my me..)
If I had to guess, that is either him looking at it Thursday, or him verifying the change today.

From what the press are claiming all Merc would need to do to be legal would be to grind an arc into the the outer most trailing edge of the top element, so that it didn't project behind the end-plate, where it joins the end-plate.

Polite
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Re: Mercedes-AMG F1 W10 EQ Power+

Post by Polite » Fri Apr 12, 2019 4:33 pm

dans79 wrote:
Fri Apr 12, 2019 4:28 pm
Polite wrote:
Fri Apr 12, 2019 4:22 pm
Really..that sounds strange also to me.
But there is a photo in which Tombazis is looking at a new Merc FW with the endplate clearly no legal (endplats dont cover flaps from lateral view)
see it (from Piola)
https://imgur.com/a/Tps68wr (modified my me..)
If I had to guess, that is either him looking at it Thursday, or him verifying the change today.
Quote! The wing in the photo is clearly not legal (see the yellow ring) so it should be a pic from thursday.. but in the news they claim this photo was of today in the morning. #bhoaw

dans79
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Re: Mercedes-AMG F1 W10 EQ Power+

Post by dans79 » Fri Apr 12, 2019 4:35 pm

Polite wrote:
Fri Apr 12, 2019 4:33 pm
Quote! The wing in the photo is clearly not legal (see the yellow ring) so it should be a pic from thursday.. but in the news they claim this photo was of today in the morning. #bhoaw
Don't trust the press,they are becoming less and less reliable every year!

Just_a_fan
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Re: Mercedes-AMG F1 W10 EQ Power+

Post by Just_a_fan » Fri Apr 12, 2019 4:38 pm

Polite wrote:
Fri Apr 12, 2019 4:22 pm

But there is a photo in which Tombazis is looking at a new Merc FW with the endplate clearly no legal (endplats dont cover flaps from lateral view)
Can anyone point to the bit in the regulations that talks about this idea that the endplate must cover the flaps from the side view. I've had a look at the relevant part of the tech regs and I can't see it. There is mention that only the rear most flap's rear edge may be visible from above and that all others must be visible from below. Other than that, not sure where this idea comes from.
Turbo says "Dumpster sounds so much more classy. It's the diamond of the cesspools." oh, and "The Dutch fans are drunk. Maybe"

F1NAC
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Re: Mercedes-AMG F1 W10 EQ Power+

Post by F1NAC » Fri Apr 12, 2019 4:40 pm

Just_a_fan wrote:
Fri Apr 12, 2019 4:38 pm
Polite wrote:
Fri Apr 12, 2019 4:22 pm

But there is a photo in which Tombazis is looking at a new Merc FW with the endplate clearly no legal (endplats dont cover flaps from lateral view)
Can anyone point to the bit in the regulations that talks about this idea that the endplate must cover the flaps from the side view. I've had a look at the relevant part of the tech regs and I can't see it. There is mention that only the rear most flap's rear edge may be visible from above and that all others must be visible from below. Other than that, not sure where this idea comes from.
Probably pushing the limits in grey area of this stuff
As Article 3.3.6 states in the current technical regulations, "once the front wing profiles have been defined, they must be trimmed by the virtual endplate surface defined in Article 3.3.5, and the portion of the front wing profiles outboard of that surface must be discarded".

Article 3.3.5 relates to the new endplate geometry dictated by the regulations new for 2019, defining a simpler design to limit the amount of airflow turned around the front wheel.

This also states that the endplate itself must "fully enclose a minimum of 95% of the virtual endplate surface", which allows for small cutouts - which teams have done typically on the top trailing edge corner.

The wording of those two rules creates a possible grey area, which Mercedes attempted to exploit. Asked by the FIA to make changes prior to FP1, Mercedes modified the outboard side of the uppermost element, cutting off the corner to ensure that none of the profile remains exposed.

Just_a_fan
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Re: Mercedes-AMG F1 W10 EQ Power+

Post by Just_a_fan » Fri Apr 12, 2019 4:43 pm

That's what the article says, not what the regs say. The regs make no mention of the visibility of the flaps from the side (laterally), only from above/below. The 95% area bit is the only bit I can see might be relevant, but if the endplate meets that and other requirements, why is it illegal?

I think someone has got the wrong end of the stick with this story.

Indeed, this story points to the other end of the endplate:
https://www.racefans.net/2019/04/12/why ... g-designs/
Turbo says "Dumpster sounds so much more classy. It's the diamond of the cesspools." oh, and "The Dutch fans are drunk. Maybe"

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Re: Mercedes-AMG F1 W10 EQ Power+

Post by turbof1 » Fri Apr 12, 2019 4:47 pm

zibby43 wrote:
Fri Apr 12, 2019 8:58 am
The new end plates do not comply with the regulations because the end plates are cut out in a fashion that you can see the top flap from the side.

The regulations state that the end plate must completely cover the flap when viewed from the side. Merc just has to modify the FW for qualifying/the race.
The regulations state that the VIRTUAL endplate surface (VES) has to cover the flaps. That's a big difference because the VES is only a surface to base the actual endplate on and is not actual bodywork (it is "virtual"). The actual endplate is allowed to deviate 5% from the VES.

Just going from the technical regulations, so without any knowledge of content of technical directives or banning based on grounds of safety, this should actually be allowed.

I am not sure this has anything to do with the leading edge of the endplate. The regulations are highly prescriptive on that. Scarbs failed to state what is wrong with the endplate leading edge. For all we know, they could just have changed the profile as an development and not as an answer to comply with the regulations. Feel free to correct me, but I deem it impossible to fall into a grey area regarding that leading edge.
#AeroFrodo

Just_a_fan
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Re: Mercedes-AMG F1 W10 EQ Power+

Post by Just_a_fan » Fri Apr 12, 2019 4:50 pm

Exactly turbo, that's my point. The regs don't outlaw it.

There is a story that the front edge of the endplate had to be changed to meet a composite composition requirement. The front end of the endplate is definitely a different colour at this race.
Turbo says "Dumpster sounds so much more classy. It's the diamond of the cesspools." oh, and "The Dutch fans are drunk. Maybe"

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Re: Mercedes-AMG F1 W10 EQ Power+

Post by turbof1 » Fri Apr 12, 2019 4:55 pm

Just_a_fan wrote:
Fri Apr 12, 2019 4:50 pm
Exactly turbo, that's my point. The regs don't outlaw it.

There is a story that the front edge of the endplate had to be changed to meet a composite composition requirement. The front end of the endplate is definitely a different colour at this race.
But I'm neither sure it's the front edge. The rules are very prescriptive in it and I don't see a dimensional grey area there. It could be composites.
#AeroFrodo