2019 Belgian Grand Prix - Spa-Francorchamps, Aug 30 - Sep 1

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langedweil
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Re: 2019 Belgian Grand Prix - Spa-Francorchamps, Aug 30 - Sep 1

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ENGINE TUNER wrote:
Mon Sep 02, 2019 3:07 am
roon wrote:
Mon Sep 02, 2019 2:49 am
Was Kimi-Ver lap 1 a racing incident? Neither seemed particularly agressive. Both had a line and didn't budge. I didn't hear of any race stewards actions.
Clearly verstappen's fault, but as usual the stewards are too lenient, which will lead to these collisions happening over and over again. RAI couldn't see VER, but VER could clearly see that RAI was not taking a wide racing line thru le source. The stewards were probably lenient because VER'S race was ended, but probably wouldn't have penalized him even if it didn't, even though he destroyed Kimi's race.
Really ..
So starting on the outside of the track in a beast-mode sprint of 350m to a bloody hairpin always gives you the entitlement of the apex on the inside, just because you could not see anyone (he could though) ?
Kimi, of all people, should know that at the start as the lights die of the belgian gp, that corner gets crowded .. and therefore claiming it like he did is almost suicidal. He just blew up a very very good chance on P6 by himself ...
This was no divebomb like 2016, not at all.
Sunshine is just a choice ...

drunkf1fan
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Re: 2019 Belgian Grand Prix - Spa-Francorchamps, Aug 30 - Sep 1

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ENGINE TUNER wrote:
Mon Sep 02, 2019 3:07 am
roon wrote:
Mon Sep 02, 2019 2:49 am
Was Kimi-Ver lap 1 a racing incident? Neither seemed particularly agressive. Both had a line and didn't budge. I didn't hear of any race stewards actions.
Clearly verstappen's fault, but as usual the stewards are too lenient, which will lead to these collisions happening over and over again. RAI couldn't see VER, but VER could clearly see that RAI was not taking a wide racing line thru le source. The stewards were probably lenient because VER'S race was ended, but probably wouldn't have penalized him even if it didn't, even though he destroyed Kimi's race.
It wasn't even close to Verstappen's fault.

If you start wide and swing to the apex on the start then unless you're first(and clear and you can see everyone else and know you have space or dead last, you're probably going to cause an accident. More importantly, Kimi has been involved in multiple accidents, including in Spa with Verstappen, because of drivers who decide that at the start with less good visibility and much higher chance of cars alongside that they should still change lines as if it was lap 30 and drivers are single file 99% of the race at that point.

Every car who started as wide as Kimi in braking who stayed wide didn't make contact, and that holds true in almost every race and in most races when someone decides to go from a wide line to the apex, or from a tight inside line to the outside a collision usually happens. Car's don't disappear because he wants them to. The inside was miles open, Verstappen is well alongside before Kimi turned all the way in... he turned all the way to the apex anyway. Refusing to leave room at the apex has cost Kimi how many accidents in T1 and he still does it.

He's done it to Vettel a couple times while in a Ferrari, Vettel did it to him in Spa, and effectively in Singapore and in plenty of other places.

If you're going to brake early and on a wide line then chopping to the apex that late is beyond ridiculous.


Also if you look at Singapore, at Spa, in China, what do those have in common, a Ferrari swung over towards another car not realising there was another car on the inside and caused accidents each time.... so what did Kimi learn from this? He's on the left half of the track, he can see one car, he knew Verstappen was ahead(at the start and while slow could still be somewhere around there) and on the inside somewhere so should absolutely think he could be there and has been involved in multiple collisions from people assuming a second car isn't there, so he immediately chopped over when the Racing Point backed off assuming he was clear.

When drivers at the start go through a corner on the rough line they enter, no accidents. When the change lines drastically, accidents. Max didn't change line, Kimi did because he made a mind numbingly stupid assumption that he was clear at the start in a always crowded corner and thus thought he could take any line he wanted.

Scorpaguy
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Re: 2019 Belgian Grand Prix - Spa-Francorchamps, Aug 30 - Sep 1

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Verstappen at Spa, lap one, turn one = total dive bomb. No way Max could have slowed and avoided contact regardless of Kimi's line.

Max's signature move...and he did not deny such afterwards.

dans79
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Re: 2019 Belgian Grand Prix - Spa-Francorchamps, Aug 30 - Sep 1

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As far as I'm concerned this is maxes fault. He was basically trying to go 3 wide into the turn, and no one would expect that.

Max himself said the following!
In the end it does not matter who is to blame
I think he did not see me, that's a shame, we can not change that now.
Max got overzealous, and it cost him!
161 97 92 6

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TAG
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Re: 2019 Belgian Grand Prix - Spa-Francorchamps, Aug 30 - Sep 1

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dans79 wrote:
Mon Sep 02, 2019 4:40 am
Max got overzealous, and it cost him!
Albon 1, Max 0 but who's keeping score. :mrgreen:
माकडाच्या हाती कोलीत

Fulcrum
Fulcrum
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Re: 2019 Belgian Grand Prix - Spa-Francorchamps, Aug 30 - Sep 1

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Max's car was entirely straddling the curb at the apex, and he still got hit. His reaction in the interview, effectively blaming no-one, speaks volumes - I suspect he knows he was at least partially to blame.

foxmulder_ms
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Re: 2019 Belgian Grand Prix - Spa-Francorchamps, Aug 30 - Sep 1

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drunkf1fan wrote:
Mon Sep 02, 2019 3:38 am
ENGINE TUNER wrote:
Mon Sep 02, 2019 3:07 am
roon wrote:
Mon Sep 02, 2019 2:49 am
Was Kimi-Ver lap 1 a racing incident? Neither seemed particularly agressive. Both had a line and didn't budge. I didn't hear of any race stewards actions.
Clearly verstappen's fault, but as usual the stewards are too lenient, which will lead to these collisions happening over and over again. RAI couldn't see VER, but VER could clearly see that RAI was not taking a wide racing line thru le source. The stewards were probably lenient because VER'S race was ended, but probably wouldn't have penalized him even if it didn't, even though he destroyed Kimi's race.
It wasn't even close to Verstappen's fault.

If you start wide and swing to the apex on the start then unless you're first(and clear and you can see everyone else and know you have space or dead last, you're probably going to cause an accident. More importantly, Kimi has been involved in multiple accidents, including in Spa with Verstappen, because of drivers who decide that at the start with less good visibility and much higher chance of cars alongside that they should still change lines as if it was lap 30 and drivers are single file 99% of the race at that point.

Every car who started as wide as Kimi in braking who stayed wide didn't make contact, and that holds true in almost every race and in most races when someone decides to go from a wide line to the apex, or from a tight inside line to the outside a collision usually happens. Car's don't disappear because he wants them to. The inside was miles open, Verstappen is well alongside before Kimi turned all the way in... he turned all the way to the apex anyway. Refusing to leave room at the apex has cost Kimi how many accidents in T1 and he still does it.

He's done it to Vettel a couple times while in a Ferrari, Vettel did it to him in Spa, and effectively in Singapore and in plenty of other places.

If you're going to brake early and on a wide line then chopping to the apex that late is beyond ridiculous.


Also if you look at Singapore, at Spa, in China, what do those have in common, a Ferrari swung over towards another car not realising there was another car on the inside and caused accidents each time.... so what did Kimi learn from this? He's on the left half of the track, he can see one car, he knew Verstappen was ahead(at the start and while slow could still be somewhere around there) and on the inside somewhere so should absolutely think he could be there and has been involved in multiple collisions from people assuming a second car isn't there, so he immediately chopped over when the Racing Point backed off assuming he was clear.

When drivers at the start go through a corner on the rough line they enter, no accidents. When the change lines drastically, accidents. Max didn't change line, Kimi did because he made a mind numbingly stupid assumption that he was clear at the start in a always crowded corner and thus thought he could take any line he wanted.
wow... I never seen a comment in which I *disagree* with every single word.

Max run out of talent. He performed a textbook dive bomb. He deserved a 5-place grid penalty for the next race.. Alas.

Albon will show what real talent looks like.

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F1NAC
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Re: 2019 Belgian Grand Prix - Spa-Francorchamps, Aug 30 - Sep 1

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Dunno if it was posted here,

Battling for DRS (Checo and Albon) for Kemmel


dxpetrov
dxpetrov
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Re: 2019 Belgian Grand Prix - Spa-Francorchamps, Aug 30 - Sep 1

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This guy is just so unpretentious it's unbelievable! You almost wish you had a son like that... And still manages to show great skill.

f1316
f1316
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Re: 2019 Belgian Grand Prix - Spa-Francorchamps, Aug 30 - Sep 1

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Restomaniac wrote:
Sun Sep 01, 2019 12:41 pm
f1316 wrote:
Sat Aug 31, 2019 2:30 pm
Now a Ferrari new spec engine problem. The difference being that the works team haven’t taken it yet, and have until next week to decide whether to do so.
Actually the difference is that Ferrari have a test mule team as does RedBull.
Wasn’t referring to Red Bull - I was saying the difference between Ferrari and Mercedes. Undoubtedly Mercedes could have chosen to give its customers the new PU before they ran it as well.

I know Perez took an old Mercedes PU as his replacement, whereas Giovannazzi took a new Ferrari one - what Kubica take? The Alfa still fitting a new one - at the cost of a grid penalty- implies confidence that there was no inherent issue, and he actually had really good race pace - going from 18th to 9th before his crash - which may bode well for the availability of higher modes in the race for Ferrari from Monza.

sosic2121
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Re: 2019 Belgian Grand Prix - Spa-Francorchamps, Aug 30 - Sep 1

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TAG wrote:
Mon Sep 02, 2019 4:48 am
dans79 wrote:
Mon Sep 02, 2019 4:40 am
Max got overzealous, and it cost him!
Albon 1, Max 0 but who's keeping score. :mrgreen:
:mrgreen:

drunkf1fan
drunkf1fan
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Re: 2019 Belgian Grand Prix - Spa-Francorchamps, Aug 30 - Sep 1

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Scorpaguy wrote:
Mon Sep 02, 2019 3:49 am
Verstappen at Spa, lap one, turn one = total dive bomb. No way Max could have slowed and avoided contact regardless of Kimi's line.

Max's signature move...and he did not deny such afterwards.
Firstly he doesn't have to, he's on the inside, he's literally entitled to space. Second, he was so out of control that he managed to go from just needing to hit the apex to going almost entirely across the curb and still got chopped by Kimi who literally hit the apex.

He was so out of control that he managed to... turn tighter. As we all know the definition of a dive bomb and someone who couldn't have avoided contact, is the ability to turn even tighter and go off track on the inside.

He was alongside full stop and Kimi continued turning into him despite having multiple car spaces on his outside.

f1jcw
f1jcw
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Re: 2019 Belgian Grand Prix - Spa-Francorchamps, Aug 30 - Sep 1

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drunkf1fan wrote:
Mon Sep 02, 2019 8:34 am
Scorpaguy wrote:
Mon Sep 02, 2019 3:49 am
Verstappen at Spa, lap one, turn one = total dive bomb. No way Max could have slowed and avoided contact regardless of Kimi's line.

Max's signature move...and he did not deny such afterwards.
Firstly he doesn't have to, he's on the inside, he's literally entitled to space. Second, he was so out of control that he managed to go from just needing to hit the apex to going almost entirely across the curb and still got chopped by Kimi who literally hit the apex.

He was so out of control that he managed to... turn tighter. As we all know the definition of a dive bomb and someone who couldn't have avoided contact, is the ability to turn even tighter and go off track on the inside.

He was alongside full stop and Kimi continued turning into him despite having multiple car spaces on his outside.
False, he wasn't alongside.

Tiny73
Tiny73
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Re: 2019 Belgian Grand Prix - Spa-Francorchamps, Aug 30 - Sep 1

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drunkf1fan wrote:
Mon Sep 02, 2019 8:34 am
Scorpaguy wrote:
Mon Sep 02, 2019 3:49 am
Verstappen at Spa, lap one, turn one = total dive bomb. No way Max could have slowed and avoided contact regardless of Kimi's line.

Max's signature move...and he did not deny such afterwards.
Firstly he doesn't have to, he's on the inside, he's literally entitled to space. Second, he was so out of control that he managed to go from just needing to hit the apex to going almost entirely across the curb and still got chopped by Kimi who literally hit the apex.

He was so out of control that he managed to... turn tighter. As we all know the definition of a dive bomb and someone who couldn't have avoided contact, is the ability to turn even tighter and go off track on the inside.

He was alongside full stop and Kimi continued turning into him despite having multiple car spaces on his outside.
I don’t post here often as my technical knowledge is far less than many others here but on this one there’s a couple of points I think you’re missing:

1) Max was late to the corner due to his poor start. Kimi shouldn’t expect to see anyone on his inside arriving that late, with that much speed and a complete unwillingness to concede any ground.
2) Max has a brake pedal in the car, it seems he didn’t use it and just speared into a corner he was never going to make with that many cars crowding the corner (on the first corner on the first lap of a race).
3) Kimi had the corner, its on Max to back out but Max’s sense of entitlement doesn’t seem to recognise that.
4) Max should’ve been punished for that move, it’s the only way he’s going to learn how to race in a pressure situation when finishing a race is more important than winning it in the first corner. I have serious doubts about his WDC capability and mentality when he pulls moves like that. I just wish the FIA would punish him in the same way they punish other drivers.

DChemTech
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Re: 2019 Belgian Grand Prix - Spa-Francorchamps, Aug 30 - Sep 1

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Amazing how everyone wants to jump on the punishment train right away. Spa has a tricky first corner - some contact there is going to happen. Max had a poor start, was a bit to eager to make up for it maybe (he did break, clearly and with sufficient room. It was not a dive-bomb, but maybe still some more prudence would have been good). He chose a poor line, too. Kimi didn't see him, and also chose a rather poor line trying to hit the apex in an inevitably crowded corner. Both could have avoided it, both didn't, both suffered the consequences. Racing incident avant la lettre, no need for penalties. Be glad the FIA is a bit more lenient towards starting incidents, otherwise they might as well all start from the pitlane.