2019 Italian Grand Prix - Monza, Sep 06 - 08

[Restomaniac]

as already have been pointed out to you

practice starts are allowed as long as you don't block the pitlane.
and they didn't, they pulled over nicely and waited till it was free to go

not sure why you are seeking something that isn't there

I think you miss my point.
I’m not saying what they did was wrong. More that it was used to get others to leave and then use their tow which is part of the same problem around the current ‘No I you in front of me as I need your tow’ attitude.

maybe but at least its a legal and legit one
and not like Hulk a half ass baked solution and coming with a lame excuse "i looked to much in my mirror"

True but it’s all around the same issue that being that nobody wants to be in front!

[turbof1]

I'm not sure you could say Leclerc was part of the blocking, he was behind sainz and they were merely continuing a normal out lap pace.
The time loss came at the start when the group was being passed by cyclists.


This problem needs to be dealt with but I have no idea how it could be done fairly.

This is a circuit-specific issue. Some people want to change the qualifying format, but I don't think that is needed or even desired.

My thinking was using the pitstraight lane light. Have it turn to red 3 minutes before the end of Q3. You are not out of the pits by then? Though luck, you aren't allowed to exit anymore. That leaves 3 minutes for the cars on track to do their outlap. Enough time for them being greedy.

[Restomaniac]

@Restomaniac: I forgot about Kimi .

Glad you said that.

[DChemTech]

For me it’s fairly simple. If you want to set a time, be sure to reach the line in time and leave the garage in time.

If you want to benefit from a tow, then keep waiting as long as you want, but don’t cry if you don’t make it in time across the line.

Exactly! Qualifying as is allows for strategic play, and we saw some most interesting moves here. Eventually, it was a wonderful exhibition of the prisoners dilemma - nobody wants the other to win so everyone loses. Great piece of psychology, which is a lot more interesting than random-drawn sequential laps in my view. Let them play.

[turbof1]

For me it’s fairly simple. If you want to set a time, be sure to reach the line in time and leave the garage in time.

If you want to benefit from a tow, then keep waiting as long as you want, but don’t cry if you don’t make it in time across the line.

Exactly! Qualifying as is allows for strategic play, and we saw some most interesting moves here. Eventually, it was a wonderful exhibition of the prisoners dilemma - nobody wants the other to win so everyone loses. Great piece of psychology, which is a lot more interesting than random-drawn sequential laps in my view. Let them play.

Prisoner's dilemma, oh that brings back memories to my university years studying economics . A very good analogy actually.

[dans79]

As far as I go, everybody waited until the last moment to get out, just to get a tow.

Again for probably the tenth time in this thread that isn't against the rules. You can go on track with a second left on the clock if you want.

Just do not assume irrational thinking.

You are suggesting people be penalized/punished for what they might have done, that sounds irrational to me given a few hundred years of legal precedence!

By the stewards own admission (handing out reprimands), Hulkenberg, Sainz, & Stroll actually broke the rules, yet the punishment they received is a complete joke, not to mention ridiculously unfair to the 17 F3 drivers who got a 5 place grid drop for the exact same infraction.

As far as I'm concerned the stewards decisions is a politically motivated disgrace. Most likely the same old underlying motivation, they don't want to detract from the show.

People are constantly saying F1 is broken because the big teams do this or that, and as far as I'm concerned they are 100% wrong. F1 is broken because the FIA routinely doesn't wield the power it has.

[Restomaniac]

For me it’s fairly simple. If you want to set a time, be sure to reach the line in time and leave the garage in time.

If you want to benefit from a tow, then keep waiting as long as you want, but don’t cry if you don’t make it in time across the line.

Exactly! Qualifying as is allows for strategic play, and we saw some most interesting moves here. Eventually, it was a wonderful exhibition of the prisoners dilemma - nobody wants the other to win so everyone loses. Great piece of psychology, which is a lot more interesting than random-drawn sequential laps in my view. Let them play.

True. You could see what was happening. The only ones who couldn’t were those IN that situation.

Only Renault seemed to snap out of it, look at the clock and say ‘oh sh**’.

[turbof1]

As far as I go, everybody waited until the last moment to get out, just to get a tow.

Again for probably the tenth time in this thread that isn't against the rules. You can go on track with a second left on the clock if you want.

I'd argue the situation created falls foul of article 151c of the International Sporting Code. Additionally you can punish them all, and not just those 3 drivers, for driving unnecessarily slow. I'll remind you of the fact that few drivers had any intent to get in front of those 3 drivers in the first place.

You are suggesting people be penalized/punished for what they might have done, that sounds irrational to me given a few hundred years of legal precedence!

A few hundred years except yesterday where half of the F3 field got punished for the same thing.

[El Scorchio]

On a more serious note; i agree with the non-penalty for Vettel. Those that have read the FIA report will see that they recognized the footage that Vettel was out of the track when looking at the contact patch, but that from other angles, it could well be that outmost part of the car (the wheels) might still be on or touching the line.

I don't understand how that is valid. When you have a CLEAR shot that shows the tyres are not touching the white line, then why see an angle that does NOT offer a better view? By this logic, we can just go to the left tyre's view and from that perspective the furthest point would be the front right tyre which would appear to completely cover the line as if he were completely in.

Furthermore let's not forget about refresh rates. The cameras as far as I know don't record greater than 60Hz, right? Which means it's possible even more important positioning of his car is missing which would show that he's even further out. It may have been captured by a camera capturing at 165Hz for example. But anyway. Lost cause.

Yup, I agree. Change rule or the wording of the rule so there can be no talk about ‘certain parts of the car MAYBE overhanging the line’ or ‘breaking an imaginary vertical plane designating the track limit!’ Why keep one where the wording makes it harder to enforce?

If there’s a visible gap between the tyres and the white line captured on camera at any time then track limits are exceeded. Tough if there ‘might’ be a portion of floor or wing overhanging the very edge. Make it obvious and easy to spot and police. Then there can be no doubt.

Unless of course the stewards and FIA find it beneficial to have these weird little ambiguities to call on when it suits them, or gives them a get out of jail free card?...

Anyway. I’ll stop now. Moaning about it on here won’t change the decision or the rule as it apparently seems to stand.

Hoping for a good race today minus and first lap chaos. I’m told it’s sunny there at the moment...

[nokivasara]

It's amazing how Ferrari managed to screw things up for themselves once again. In Q3 they had planned to use one to tow the other and did so with VET towing LEC and then after the red flag they had oceans of time to go out and let LEC go first to help Vettel but no, they too played the waiting game. For what? Nothing.
I get that going out earlier just would have prompted Merc to go out after them but the reds still had a pretty good shot at locking out the front row. Classic Ferrari tactics really.

[dans79]

A few hundred years except yesterday where half of the F3 field got punished for the same thing.

17 drivers got what they got because they literally drove to slowly which is easily verifiable via GPS. If one of those drivers can prove via his GPS data that he didn't drive to slowly then he should appeal.

Honestly, this is something that is 100% quantifiable, yet it seems far too many people are responding in a emotional manner.

[turbof1]

It's amazing how Ferrari managed to screw things up for themselves once again. In Q3 they had planned to use one to tow the other and did so with VET towing LEC and then after the red flag they had oceans of time to go out and let LEC go first to help Vettel but no, they too played the waiting game. For what? Nothing.
I get that going out earlier just would have prompted Merc to go out after them but the reds still had a pretty good shot at locking out the front row. Classic Ferrari tactics really.

You are right that they shot themselves in the foot, but equally everybody else did. I think most had a good chance on improving their times.

[dans79]

Oh and I forgot to mention in my last post that you can't punish someone based on intent only on what they actually did.

At least if you plan to have any credibility going forward anyway.

[turbof1]

A few hundred years except yesterday where half of the F3 field got punished for the same thing.

17 drivers got what they got because they literally drove to slowly which is easily verifiable via GPS. If one of those drivers can prove via his GPS data that he didn't drive to slowly then he should appeal.

Honestly, this is something that is 100% quantifiable, yet it seems far too many people are responding in a emotional manner.

FIA F1 sporting regulations:

27.4 At no time may a car be driven unnecessarily slowly, erratically or in a manner which could be
deemed potentially dangerous to other drivers or any other person.

"unnecessarily slowly" is not quantifiable defined. It does not matter if you are driving 300km/h, or 50km/h. You can in theory be deemed unnecessarily driving slow for both. Therefore appeal looks to be very difficult to do. Again, I think it is more than applicable here, aside even the 151c catch all rule.

Again, this is a difference in opinion. You feel like blame should be individually appropriated and you can certainly make a case for it. I, on the other hand, feel like the whole situation is created by all the F1 teams together waiting until the last second and then trying to get a tow from each other. And if you want to find other examples where a group of people is being punished even though the individual had no intent, just look at unsafe releases. This is nothing new. Again it has happened in F3 earlier yesterday.

[dans79]

A few hundred years except yesterday where half of the F3 field got punished for the same thing.

17 drivers got what they got because they literally drove to slowly which is easily verifiable via GPS. If one of those drivers can prove via his GPS data that he didn't drive to slowly then he should appeal.

Honestly, this is something that is 100% quantifiable, yet it seems far too many people are responding in a emotional manner.

FIA F1 sporting regulations:

27.4 At no time may a car be driven unnecessarily slowly, erratically or in a manner which could be
deemed potentially dangerous to other drivers or any other person.

"unnecessarily slowly" is not quantifiable defined. It does not matter if you are driving 300km/h, or 50km/h. You can in theory be deemed unnecessarily driving slow for both. Therefore appeal looks to be very difficult to do. Again, I think it is more than applicable here, aside even the 151c catch all rule.

a directive was given before the weekend that drivers must not go slower than 1:45 per lap. That's seems pretty quantifiable and verifiable to me.