Mercedes changes 2020 livery in fight against racism

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turbof1
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Re: [ 2020 ] AMG Mercedes F1 Team - Mercedes

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dans79 wrote:
Wed Jul 01, 2020 2:43 pm
turbof1 wrote:
Wed Jul 01, 2020 2:30 pm
I believe there were 2 reports though, with the second pointing out it was caused by suffocating.I can be wrong though, this is from the top of my head.
The second report was a private one, and the findings are the same, just worded differently.

what you are referring to is covered by "complicating law enforcement subdual,
restraint, and neck compression"
I took a quick glance over it and I found the report for me highly confusing and unclear. But, I am neither able for the moment to take my time with the report, so that could be entirely me.
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PlatinumZealot
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Re: Mercedes changes 2020 livery in fight against racism

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turbof1 wrote:
Wed Jul 01, 2020 12:13 pm

I also still don't see how this should be about racism against black people only. Why not enlarge the debate and tackle all of racism. For instance, there are enough asian people being victim of hate crimes as well, or hespanic people. It's not about highjacking the movement, or deluting the origins of the movement. It is about doing right.
Play devil's advocate to yourself and try to see how it should be. Do some history review along the way.

OK. I have never googled black lives matter before.. but because of you.. I did.. nothing new to me but here is a link you can start with:

https://blacklivesmatter.com/what-we-believe/
We are unapologetically Black in our positioning. In affirming that Black Lives Matter, we need not qualify our position. To love and desire freedom and justice for ourselves is a prerequisite for wanting the same for others.
Then read up American History.. (or any Colonial country's history) along the way...
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PlatinumZealot
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Re: [ 2020 ] AMG Mercedes F1 Team - Mercedes

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dren wrote:
Wed Jul 01, 2020 12:46 pm
3jawchuck wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 10:46 am
Yeah, resisting arrest is dumb. But so is choking a man to death when he posed no threat to you or others around him. I don't know nor give a --- if it was because he was black, police brutality has gone on too long and those who perpetrate it need prosecuting.
I'm not advocating abuse of power by the police, it happens more than it should. That's the nature of a position that holds power over others, they are often attractive to those who will want to abuse the power.

But, if you are referring to Floyd, his autopsies showed he died of a heart attack from a fentanyl overdose.
Ah boy. :roll: Credibility on the topic gone to absolute zero right there. Zero Kelvins..
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turbof1
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Re: Mercedes changes 2020 livery in fight against racism

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PlatinumZealot wrote:
Wed Jul 01, 2020 2:54 pm
turbof1 wrote:
Wed Jul 01, 2020 12:13 pm

I also still don't see how this should be about racism against black people only. Why not enlarge the debate and tackle all of racism. For instance, there are enough asian people being victim of hate crimes as well, or hespanic people. It's not about highjacking the movement, or deluting the origins of the movement. It is about doing right.
Play devil's advocate to yourself and try to see how it should be. Do some history review along the way.

OK. I have never googled black lives matter before.. but because of you.. I did.. nothing new to me but here is a link you can start with:

https://blacklivesmatter.com/what-we-believe/
We are unapologetically Black in our positioning. In affirming that Black Lives Matter, we need not qualify our position. To love and desire freedom and justice for ourselves is a prerequisite for wanting the same for others.
Then read up American History.. (or any Colonial country's history) along the way...
I have a rudimentary understanding of how racism against black people in the USA evolved; it's not that I am not acknowledging that.

The question still remains though. I am sure somewhere they are demanding equal rights and treatment for everybody, but the emphasis is not on that.
#AeroFrodo

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mertol
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Re: Mercedes changes 2020 livery in fight against racism

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The rights are equal now. There is no law saying black people must be poor or criminals or abused by police. There can be no new law saying blacks must get more money to equalize them or whatever. It's unconstitutional. So making this about race is pointless and a dead end.

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PlatinumZealot
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Re: Mercedes changes 2020 livery in fight against racism

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turbof1 wrote:
Wed Jul 01, 2020 2:58 pm

I have a rudimentary understanding of how racism against black people in the USA evolved; it's not that I am not acknowledging that.

The question still remains though. I am sure somewhere they are demanding equal rights and treatment for everybody, but the emphasis is not on that.
Should breast cancer awareness month focus on ALL cancers? Nah...
It doesn't but it makes everyone aware of cancer on a whole anyway. It was the first cancer most people are aware of. That and maybe lung cancer. The whole no smoking thing. Remember when cigarette advertising was banned in formula 1. Something like that we can ask ourselves why was it banned when F1 is just a sport?
Last edited by PlatinumZealot on Wed Jul 01, 2020 3:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Big Tea
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Re: Mercedes changes 2020 livery in fight against racism

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turbof1 wrote:
Wed Jul 01, 2020 2:58 pm
PlatinumZealot wrote:
Wed Jul 01, 2020 2:54 pm
turbof1 wrote:
Wed Jul 01, 2020 12:13 pm

I also still don't see how this should be about racism against black people only. Why not enlarge the debate and tackle all of racism. For instance, there are enough asian people being victim of hate crimes as well, or hespanic people. It's not about highjacking the movement, or deluting the origins of the movement. It is about doing right.
Play devil's advocate to yourself and try to see how it should be. Do some history review along the way.

OK. I have never googled black lives matter before.. but because of you.. I did.. nothing new to me but here is a link you can start with:

https://blacklivesmatter.com/what-we-believe/
We are unapologetically Black in our positioning. In affirming that Black Lives Matter, we need not qualify our position. To love and desire freedom and justice for ourselves is a prerequisite for wanting the same for others.
Then read up American History.. (or any Colonial country's history) along the way...
I have a rudimentary understanding of how racism against black people in the USA evolved; it's not that I am not acknowledging that.

The question still remains though. I am sure somewhere they are demanding equal rights and treatment for everybody, but the emphasis is not on that.
Guys, you probably have, but if not or do not recall it, read Huckleberry Finn. It was written without any particular bias and of the time. Not suggesting it is a true story but the incidental history and ethos is just about spot on.

Leaves me embarrassed but enlightened
Besides, its a good read in its own right, and freely available from hundreds of places on the net
We are standing on the shoulders of Giants. So watch your feet.

dans79
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Re: [ 2020 ] AMG Mercedes F1 Team - Mercedes

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turbof1 wrote:
Wed Jul 01, 2020 2:45 pm
I took a quick glance over it and I found the report for me highly confusing and unclear. But, I am neither able for the moment to take my time with the report, so that could be entirely me.
It's not you, in general reports of this nature are complex and not worded in a manner that makes them easy for most people to read.

Here are some quotes from several professionals.

https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/th ... they-seem/
“They are just different ways of describing the same thing,” said Dr. Joye Carter, forensic pathologist to the sheriff of San Luis Obispo County, California.
Some of the public confusion over Floyd’s autopsy reports can be blamed on misinterpretation by the media and the public, said Dr. Judy Melinek, a San Francisco-based forensic pathologist . “Anybody suggesting asphyxia was ruled out by the medical examiner is wrong,” she said.
The Hennepin County autopsy may have mentioned factors beyond police conduct, but it was really just saying Floyd’s heart stopped while police were restraining him and pressing on his neck, said Melinek, Carter and Dr. Michael Freeman, professor of forensic medicine and epidemiology at Maastricht University in the Netherlands. It’s not a claim that he died of a heart attack, drugs, or pre-existing conditions, they told me. “The cause of death is police restraint,” Melinek said, just like in the autopsy Floyd’s family commissioned.
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PlatinumZealot
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Re: Mercedes changes 2020 livery in fight against racism

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Big Tea wrote:
Wed Jul 01, 2020 3:15 pm

Guys, you probably have, but if not or do not recall it, read Huckleberry Finn. It was written without any particular bias and of the time. Not suggesting it is a true story but the incidental history and ethos is just about spot on.

Leaves me embarrassed but enlightened
Besides, its a good read in its own right, and freely available from hundreds of places on the net
"How to Kill a mocking bird" is also a good one. I liked the movie more than the book.

"Raisin in the Sun" also.
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Jolle
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Re: [ 2020 ] AMG Mercedes F1 Team - Mercedes

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dans79 wrote:
Wed Jul 01, 2020 3:24 pm
turbof1 wrote:
Wed Jul 01, 2020 2:45 pm
I took a quick glance over it and I found the report for me highly confusing and unclear. But, I am neither able for the moment to take my time with the report, so that could be entirely me.
It's not you, in general reports of this nature are complex and not worded in a manner that makes them easy for most people to read.

Here are some quotes from several professionals.

https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/th ... they-seem/
“They are just different ways of describing the same thing,” said Dr. Joye Carter, forensic pathologist to the sheriff of San Luis Obispo County, California.
Some of the public confusion over Floyd’s autopsy reports can be blamed on misinterpretation by the media and the public, said Dr. Judy Melinek, a San Francisco-based forensic pathologist . “Anybody suggesting asphyxia was ruled out by the medical examiner is wrong,” she said.
The Hennepin County autopsy may have mentioned factors beyond police conduct, but it was really just saying Floyd’s heart stopped while police were restraining him and pressing on his neck, said Melinek, Carter and Dr. Michael Freeman, professor of forensic medicine and epidemiology at Maastricht University in the Netherlands. It’s not a claim that he died of a heart attack, drugs, or pre-existing conditions, they told me. “The cause of death is police restraint,” Melinek said, just like in the autopsy Floyd’s family commissioned.
The first autopsy was worded in such a way that several news outlets (and some members here) could state that he didn’t die of having a knee on his neck for almost nine minutes, but because of drugs and a bad heart, suggesting the police did nothing wrong.

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turbof1
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Re: Mercedes changes 2020 livery in fight against racism

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PlatinumZealot wrote:
Wed Jul 01, 2020 3:14 pm
turbof1 wrote:
Wed Jul 01, 2020 2:58 pm

I have a rudimentary understanding of how racism against black people in the USA evolved; it's not that I am not acknowledging that.

The question still remains though. I am sure somewhere they are demanding equal rights and treatment for everybody, but the emphasis is not on that.
Should breast cancer awareness month focus on ALL cancers? Nah...
It doesn't but it makes everyone aware of cancer on a whole anyway. It was the first cancer most people are aware of. That and maybe lung cancer. The whole no smoking thing. Remember when cigarette advertising was banned in formula 1. Something like that we can ask ourselves why was it banned when F1 is just a sport?
I am really not on board with this "one racist problem at a time" thing, but again that could be me :lol: .

For the record, in Belgium we do have a day dedicated to focus on all kinds of cancer. Sadly, we don't have one dedicated to bring awareness about racism (which I feel we should, because as far as I go racism is metaphorically societal cancer).
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Big Tea
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Re: Mercedes changes 2020 livery in fight against racism

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PlatinumZealot wrote:
Wed Jul 01, 2020 3:32 pm
Big Tea wrote:
Wed Jul 01, 2020 3:15 pm

Guys, you probably have, but if not or do not recall it, read Huckleberry Finn. It was written without any particular bias and of the time. Not suggesting it is a true story but the incidental history and ethos is just about spot on.

Leaves me embarrassed but enlightened
Besides, its a good read in its own right, and freely available from hundreds of places on the net
"How to Kill a mocking bird" is also a good one. I liked the movie more than the book.

"Raisin in the Sun" also.
Yeh. They show the acceptance of what was everyday. No one being malicious especially, but how people accepted it as everyday behaviour. People who have not read them should do so. They were not written to make a point, just showing how it was.
We are standing on the shoulders of Giants. So watch your feet.

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turbof1
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Re: [ 2020 ] AMG Mercedes F1 Team - Mercedes

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Jolle wrote:
Wed Jul 01, 2020 3:44 pm
dans79 wrote:
Wed Jul 01, 2020 3:24 pm
turbof1 wrote:
Wed Jul 01, 2020 2:45 pm
I took a quick glance over it and I found the report for me highly confusing and unclear. But, I am neither able for the moment to take my time with the report, so that could be entirely me.
It's not you, in general reports of this nature are complex and not worded in a manner that makes them easy for most people to read.

Here are some quotes from several professionals.

https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/th ... they-seem/
“They are just different ways of describing the same thing,” said Dr. Joye Carter, forensic pathologist to the sheriff of San Luis Obispo County, California.
Some of the public confusion over Floyd’s autopsy reports can be blamed on misinterpretation by the media and the public, said Dr. Judy Melinek, a San Francisco-based forensic pathologist . “Anybody suggesting asphyxia was ruled out by the medical examiner is wrong,” she said.
The Hennepin County autopsy may have mentioned factors beyond police conduct, but it was really just saying Floyd’s heart stopped while police were restraining him and pressing on his neck, said Melinek, Carter and Dr. Michael Freeman, professor of forensic medicine and epidemiology at Maastricht University in the Netherlands. It’s not a claim that he died of a heart attack, drugs, or pre-existing conditions, they told me. “The cause of death is police restraint,” Melinek said, just like in the autopsy Floyd’s family commissioned.
The first autopsy was worded in such a way that several news outlets (and some members here) could state that he didn’t die of having a knee on his neck for almost nine minutes, but because of drugs and a bad heart, suggesting the police did nothing wrong.
I have heard the same, but in hindsight this could have been reported in the wrong way by the media. If that is the case, it's not down to bias, but misinterpreting the document. Given the complexity of medical documents, that is a possibility.

I double checked this, and it seems both reports said the same thing, with the first report having parts of it highlighted way too much which made it seem the cause of death was claimed to be something else.
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turbof1
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Re: Mercedes changes 2020 livery in fight against racism

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mertol wrote:
Wed Jul 01, 2020 3:04 pm
The rights are equal now. There is no law saying black people must be poor or criminals or abused by police. There can be no new law saying blacks must get more money to equalize them or whatever. It's unconstitutional. So making this about race is pointless and a dead end.
There is also no law about forbidding "societal uplifting of certain neighbourhoods or individuals" :wink: .

There is a clear distinct difference between "rights" and "societal chances". And please, let us not make this about the constitution. That thing gets violated by the government itself. If the need raises high enough, the constitution is nothing more than a dead letter.
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dans79
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Re: [ 2020 ] AMG Mercedes F1 Team - Mercedes

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Jolle wrote:
Wed Jul 01, 2020 3:44 pm
The first autopsy was worded in such a way that several news outlets (and some members here) could state that he didn’t die of having a knee on his neck for almost nine minutes, but because of drugs and a bad heart, suggesting the police did nothing wrong.
As I and others have said/alluded to, that is the press and others being out of their depth, or reading/presenting what they want to.

An autopsy report written by a medical examiner or coroner is generally not written to be consumed by the general public. They are written using the appropriate medical terminology, and to be overtly thorough, because they must stand up to examination in the court of law. they can't have oopsies or oversites, they must list every possible condition/issue they can find with their patient.
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