Red Bull RB9 Renault

[Manoah2u]

.
... 300 deg is well beyond the maximum temp of any normal composite resins. And I'm sure its well above the maximum temp of the plank material also. Heating up the undertray to that sort of temperature would just destroy it.

There are special polyamides resins with thermoplastic behavior, such as this one: http://www.arizonachemical.com/Global/P ... 202626.pdf
As you could see this resins could easily be exposed to air for up to 2 hours at 210°C (410°F) or 3 hours at 190°C (374°F) without skin formation or significant viscosity increase ...
Now carbon fibers alone has a high thermal dissipation coefficient and within a carbon fiber structure it could easily surpass the 300°C test stress.
In this test matter two good questions are needed to be answered:
1. How long that 300°C temperature was applied to the structure?
2. The test was undertaken when this particular temperature was reached?

http://www.high-temperature-composites. ... rokarb.htm

F1 exhaust blows out +1000°C centigrade temperatures right onto the floor and suspension parts
F1 carbon brakes operate at 1900°C centigrade.

I think it's safe to say that 300°C isn't nearly near the maximum temp, even though presumably the reinforcements of the suspension parts and exhaust parts are not neccesarily the same as a front wing or t-tray.

[strad]

That isn't flowvis. That is a combination of carbon buildup from the exhaust. Very common when an engine runs rich. Probably also rubber particles sticking as well to the end plates.

Yep

[Richard]

That isn't flowvis. That is a combination of carbon buildup from the exhaust. Very common when an engine runs rich. Probably also rubber particles sticking as well to the end plates.

Yep

I see the OP used quote marks for "flow viz" on the original post. I think the OP knows its not actual flow-vis, but was pointing out the carbon deposits have had the same effect as flow-viz.

[timbo]

I see the OP used quote marks for "flow viz" on the original post. I think the OP knows its not actual flow-vis, but was pointing out the carbon deposits have had the same effect as flow-viz.

I too think that's what he meant. However, when the smoke settled (during Vettel making the donuts) there were hardly any meaningful flow.

However this is not the first time I see some rubber particles deposited on the rear wing end plates at the end of the race. It would be interesting to investigate such images deeper.

[Tim.Wright]

.
... 300 deg is well beyond the maximum temp of any normal composite resins. And I'm sure its well above the maximum temp of the plank material also. Heating up the undertray to that sort of temperature would just destroy it.

There are special polyamides resins with thermoplastic behavior, such as this one: http://www.arizonachemical.com/Global/P ... 202626.pdf
As you could see this resins could easily be exposed to air for up to 2 hours at 210°C (410°F) or 3 hours at 190°C (374°F) without skin formation or significant viscosity increase ...
Now carbon fibers alone has a high thermal dissipation coefficient and within a carbon fiber structure it could easily surpass the 300°C test stress.
In this test matter two good questions are needed to be answered:
1. How long that 300°C temperature was applied to the structure?
2. The test was undertaken when this particular temperature was reached?

That is why I said "normal" as in epoxy resins. If this part of the car was able to withstand 300deg then it must be using something like a BMI resin (which is obvious to the naked eye because it has a red tinge). Then you need to ask yourself, WHY would they be using a BMI resin in this area. It would be pretty obvious then that there is some sort of high temperature designed into the part otherwise you would make it from a normal epoxy.

The 300deg would have only been momentary, using a hot air gun (as was suggested in the original article). There aren't many ovens that will go to 300deg

[Holm86]

Check out this great article on the development of the RB9 throughout the season.

http://www.racecar-engineering.com/cars/red-bull-rb9/

[Kiril Varbanov]

Latest animated updates on RB9 from Piola - http://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/vide ... 76363.html

[hollus]

I am going to venture a guess that 300 degrees might even have been Fahrenheit (about 149C, bad journalism happens). Also, I agree, this was most likely done with a heat gun for a while, so the core might or might not have reached significantly high temperatures. Just exactly how are they supposed to measure that the internal temperature was 300 degrees (C/F) all across the T-tray?

[tony77g]

Sundays during the Red Bull pit stop a technician taking photographs to RB9
What could be of interest to technicians?
In the article some photographs that show how: the marble, the engine exhaust gases and carbon brakes have marked the rear wing.

http://www.f1sport.it/2013/10/29/f1-la- ... -red-bull/

[kalinka]

Just to put another idea on board : What if alternator failures are related to T-tray heating? Sure heating up the T-tray would cause quite a lot of stress on the alternator...That was my first thougth when Webber's alternator failed, but even I think it's an unlikely scenario.

[Robbobnob]

Hmmm I highly doubt that.

Judging by the thermal images the T-tray is heated around 100 deg C similar to the Tyres.

That is quite a distance forward from the rear of the chassis and even further forward from the interface between the transmission and the engine, where the alternator would be situated.

It would be subject to much greater heat sources at a closer distance in that position, in particular the exhausts, KERS - MGU and the oil and water systems.

[kalinka]

You didn't understand me - it's my fault. I meant that they may heat the T-tray electrically, using power from the alternator - and the additional electric current load may cause it to fail sometimes.

[McMrocks]

You didn't understand me - it's my fault. I meant that they may heat the T-tray electrically, using power from the alternator - and the additional electric current load may cause it to fail sometimes.

There could be something in it.

Heating up the t-tray by using friction would cause massive wear to the skid block.

At India (fp2?) we saw a skid block in the termal camera which wasn't that hot like in the picture which is posted in this thread here. The floor in India got only hot when the driver hit the brakes. This actualy means that the floor isn't constantly hot which disproves the theory of artificial heating up.

Also at the first time we saw the thermal image of the t-tray the floor didn't have the same temperature during the whole video.

[Dragonfly]

Reading above I got another idea and I think it's quite plausible.
If the KERS battery is full but they have to harvest in order to achieve uniform braking performance or for some other reason the resulting electric energy has to be dumped trough a ballast. What if there is an electrical ballast built in the T-tray together with the weight ballast they usually put there? And quite normally it heats up while dumping energy.
This would mean that there is high temperature but for quite different reasons than making the tray flex or bend.

[Owen.C93]

I think they dissipate via capacitors or something. Other teams just use big resistors which also produce a lot of heat.

When the FIA did the tests did they just heat it up and see if it moved up like Gary Anderson said? Or did they then apply the static load? Because it's very possible that the stay gets softer at high temps and allows more flex.