Red Bull RB9 Renault

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amc
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Re: Red Bull RB9 Renault

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Anyone else think it's the rev-limiter?

There's a long black stripe away from the apex (as the wheels break traction and spin up), then the short lines start to appear.
As far as I know (and I might be wrong) the rev limiter cuts ignition after a certain RPM to stop the engine spinning up even more, and brings it up again after a brief period. The black bits are formed as the engine starts producing torque, at which point the wheels immediately break traction and spin; the clear bits when the ignition has been cut by the software and the wheels gain traction with the road. Hence your stripes. They go away when Webber changes gear.

Nothing complicated really.
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Tim.Wright
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Re: Red Bull RB9 Renault

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Could be the anti stall. I'm certain that its not deliberate, oscillations in anything are what kill tyre grip.
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godlameroso
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Re: Red Bull RB9 Renault

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Oscillating wings don't, they actually magnify lift. Birds don't stop flapping their wings to get off the ground.
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Tim.Wright
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Re: Red Bull RB9 Renault

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Oscillating wings have got nothing to do with tyres though. Thats my point.

Oscillating downforce is pointless for tyres. The tyres lose grip instantly when the load reduces and there is a lag to build it up when the load increases again. That and tyre load sensitivity effects mean the result is always a net decrease in grip.

I can guarantee no-one are trying to oscillate anything to get more grip out of their tyres.
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rjsa
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Re: Red Bull RB9 Renault

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Tim.Wright wrote:Oscillating wings have got nothing to do with tyres though. Thats my point.

Oscillating downforce is pointless for tyres. The tyres lose grip instantly when the load reduces and there is a lag to build it up when the load increases again. That and tyre load sensitivity effects mean the result is always a net decrease in grip.

I can guarantee no-one are trying to oscillate anything to get more grip out of their tyres.
Anything but torque.

But then again, anything they could possibly be doing with the SECU would be hard coded on maps and under open loop control. Could be called torque modulation but never tractio control.

spiritone
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Re: Red Bull RB9 Renault

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Drag race cars that lose traction do not have alternating tire patches. I have worked with drag races cars and even a pro mod that has tire shake doesn't have alternating tire mark patches.

Red bull has some of the smartest engineers in the paddock and if anyone can come up with a innovative form of tc it would be them. They have been ahead of the game with flexable wings, etc, and so far no one has been able to outsmart them yet.

rjsa
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Re: Red Bull RB9 Renault

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They might be paying with the differential, throwing thrust from one wheel to the other, or it might just be a freak accident, a weird resonance.

Now there is no way information is getting back into the SECU to curb torque output from the engine. It's been discussed over and over again, the SECU does not know the math to control wheelspin, it's just not wired like that. There's nothing smart engineering can do about that.

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Pierce89
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Re: Red Bull RB9 Renault

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rjsa wrote:They might be paying with the differential, throwing thrust from one wheel to the other, or it might just be a freak accident, a weird resonance.

Now there is no way information is getting back into the SECU to curb torque output from the engine. It's been discussed over and over again, the SECU does not know the math to control wheelspin, it's just not wired like that. There's nothing smart engineering can do about that.
The diff can't legally switch torque from side to side. The electronics can only simulate the effects you get from changing springs, ramp angles etc. in a traditional limited slip diff.
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estormell
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Re: Red Bull RB9 Renault

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Could it be the throttle map? see this: http://www.f1technical.net/features/17820

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raymondu999
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Re: Red Bull RB9 Renault

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Possible technically. But from a regulation point of view it wouldn't be - as the regulations need a map that, at any point along 0-100% throttle, only deviates from a supplied "base" map. It's possible that the base map has those pulses in it - but it doesn't make sense (to me, anyways) - why would you want to do that?
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PhillipM
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Re: Red Bull RB9 Renault

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It makes a sliding rear end easier to catch and easier to hold near the limit, because the tyre begins to slip slightly on as the pulse is applied then stops and the carcass relaxes as the pulse drops off, which helps with feedback and feel to the driver about where the limit is, which may well be a great thing to help preserve the current Pirelli's.

If you had perfect traction and tyres that could take being stressed to 100% every lap, you wouldn't do it, as it's slower, but we know that's far from the case at the moment.

langwadt
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Re: Red Bull RB9 Renault

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Tim.Wright wrote:Could be the anti stall. I'm certain that its not deliberate, oscillations in anything are what kill tyre grip.
It cannot be anti stall, the rules say that once stall prevention is triggered it must keep the clutch fully disengaged until the driver manually operate the clutch clutch paddle >95%

LookBackTime
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Re: Red Bull RB9 Renault

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RED BULL CHEATING BY USING BANNED TRACTION CONTROL – REPORT

"http://www.f1pulse.com/news/2013061832/ ... l-–-report"

See the video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zxig8iM7 ... e=youtu.be

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Tim.Wright
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Re: Red Bull RB9 Renault

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PhillipM wrote:It makes a sliding rear end easier to catch and easier to hold near the limit, because the tyre begins to slip slightly on as the pulse is applied then stops and the carcass relaxes as the pulse drops off, which helps with feedback and feel to the driver about where the limit is, which may well be a great thing to help preserve the current Pirelli's.

If you had perfect traction and tyres that could take being stressed to 100% every lap, you wouldn't do it, as it's slower, but we know that's far from the case at the moment.
I don't know what you are basing this information on, but in my experience there is no way in hell that pulsing the drive torque is going to help feedback to the driver. Quite the opposite. Additionally it will result in less overall grip for the reasons of tyre relaxation lengths and load sensitivity that I mentioned before. But if you want to continue pushing the belief that oscillating a tyre's torque or load is going to give you any improvement of grip or stability then I'm not going to continue arguing. I suggest reading up a bit on tyre dynamics before making such authoritative but completely hand waving statements.
langwadt wrote:
Tim.Wright wrote:Could be the anti stall. I'm certain that its not deliberate, oscillations in anything are what kill tyre grip.
It cannot be anti stall, the rules say that once stall prevention is triggered it must keep the clutch fully disengaged until the driver manually operate the clutch clutch paddle >95%
Fine, the most likely scenario then is this:
Anti stall kicks in after the collision because Mark brakes and the car slows too much
He coasts around the corner until he is out of trouble from the Cateram
And then he dumps the clutch while still exiting the corner
Dumping the clutch sends an impulse of torque through the driveshafts to the unevenly loaded rear wheels
The inside wheel loses grip and spins up
The differential, being a limited slip clutch type, then biases torque to the slower wheel
This stops the inside wheel from spinning and starts the outside wheel spinning
Once the outside wheel starts spinning faster than the inside one, the torque bias swaps again to the inside wheel
And so on, until the oscillation dies out.

It suggests to me that the driveshafts are not rigidly stiff in torsion (Titanium is twice as flexible as steel) and that dumping the clutch during a corner could setup an oscillation that is excited partly by the diff torque biasing.

I really don't see it being any more sinister than that.

It one thing for you guys to be curious as to what causes this behaviour, but to go and start the whole Red Bull are cheating (see previous post), hidden TC etc BS is pretty bad form.
Last edited by Tim.Wright on Tue Jun 18, 2013 2:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Not the engineer at Force India

stefan_
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Re: Red Bull RB9 Renault

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LookBackTime wrote:RED BULL CHEATING BY USING BANNED TRACTION CONTROL – REPORT

"http://www.f1pulse.com/news/2013061832/ ... l-–-report"
I believe that title is inappropriate. Most likely it's something mechanical-related happening rather than some kind of TC as some suggest. Maybe some onboard footage with natural sound will clear things up.
"...and there, very much in flames, is Jacques Laffite's Ligier. That's obviously a turbo blaze, and of course, Laffite will be able to see that conflagration in his mirrors... he is coolly parking the car somewhere safe." Murray Walker, San Marino 1985