Massa crashes after being hit by heave spring

[Ray]

double post

[Ray]

the explosion in an exploding bolt can easily be self contained, it wouldn't even have to blow off the canopy like in a jet, but merely release the canopy.

That is a very very bad idea. Those can be accidentally set off by a mechanic in the pits, and for cripes sake it's an explosive! You cannot have them in a closed environment without an disproportionate increase in risk. What if it was tripped on the race track and you have a canopy either flying through the air or laying on the track around a blind corner. Why increase the risk for miniscule gain?!? It makes no sense. I'll go back to what I said in another thread, why put a FOD screen on a passenger jet engine and increase your risk of it coming loose and going into an engine to prevent a very small risk of a bird strike? With that screen over the engine during all times it is operating, you have increased the risk of something being ingested to takeoff and landing to whenever the engine is running. It makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. What if the canopy got stuck and the car was on fire? Since we are talking about the very rare happening here, that's a very valid thing to point out.

You obviously have no idea about modern explosives, which are designed to be extremely stable and most require a chemical reaction to initiate. They operate more like the fuse of a warhead then TNT. Much less volatile than the fuel in the cars, and like I said they don't need to eject the canopy(which can be tethered to the car) it just needs to release it to give access to the driver. Explosions don't need to be big, think of the pop caps you used to throw as a child. It is not the only solution but just an idea i put out there for discussion.

Why do you think that explosive bolts would be so much more dangerous in a racecar than in a jet plane with military bombs on board?

I work on ejection seats for the United States Marines on F/A-18s. I think I know a shitload more about explosives on jets, and especially canopies than you ever hope to. They are dangerous no matter what they are on. Like I said, what if that 'pop cap' was set off on the track by mistake? The pressure difference would pull the canopy off and it would land on the track. It's not a safe, nor sound idea.

[zx9rc1]

I hope he is going to be ok poor chap I wish Felipe a speedy recovery, hi everyone I have been reading F1 tech for years so decided to join instead and add some thoughts.
I just want to say that what has happened in the last week or two are highly unusual instances and just 2 out of the many races that take place each year without incident. These are million to one happenings and its just the law of averages they both have happened so near to each other. As someone who has a single seater license and also as an engineer, I would rather not have anything explosive next to me, I have the petrol tank for that and also its hard enough getting out of the car in an accident without a canopy over you and in the wet it would be stupidly dangerous and also it would probably be dangerous in the sun too due to reflections. I would much rather see time invested in making helmets and visors more able to take the sort of hits we have seen today. As for taller screens, I wouldnt be happy either as it would send the stray part up in the air and dump it straight down into the following driver if he was unlucky. The only way I see round it is better quality control at a team and engineering level e.g make sure the parts are done up and are strong enough, then you wont need anything else as parts wont fall off. Why not have an FIA scrutineer do spot checks wandering round garages checking bolts? or something similar? Or the old fashioned way, a marker pen to mark the fasteners that are tightened as you would do with hydraulics? Whatever you do these things will always happen and we know the risks but love our sport. While there are humans involved there will always be accidents you just cannot stop it no matter how safe you make things.

[Ray]

Why do you think that explosive bolts would be so much more dangerous in a racecar than in a jet plane with military bombs on board?

Jetplanes are never ever exposed to such vibrations as F1 cars.

Jet planes are under way more stress than an F1 car would ever be. They are more dangerous on racecars because people are TRAINED in the military to handle explosives and they are VERY strict about that training. The MOS I had in the Marines could not be cross trained into. Ejection seat and canopy mechanic. Not even the ordnancemen who loaded bombs could be cross trained into my MOS. ALL ordnance rules are written in blood, not merely broken parts.

[Paul]

Thinking about this accident I've had an idea about stopping cars safely even if they are out of control. A cable and hook system as used on aircraft carriers. I don't think it would be a problem to install a hook on an F1 car and if the car isn't airborne a controllable deceleration can be achieved. It is a question of installing cables in the right places, like ends of straights. Do you think it makes sense?

[siskue2005]

800g! that is freaking heavy!!


Could this be Proof that Barichello's car is not as well prepared as Button's?

its the relative velocity of car and the spring causing the huge force

[Giblet]

Saying that a metal face mask over the visor could be more dangerous to other cars is a negative way to look at it.

For the mask to come dislodged, the driver would have to be hit in the face with something very strong. It is about harm reduction. Massa with no broken face, vs a metal face mask on the track that just saved his face? They wouldn't come off willy nilly, just like visors don't.

Your argument is like saying airbags should be outlawed because of an occasional boken nose, and very few deaths even though they save countless lives.

How would you mount it? Screws? Epoxy? If it came dislodged it could bend around his helmet and pierce his neck. Airbags are not an apples to apples comparison. Airbags absorb impacts without any sharp edges and no risk of penetrating any part of your body, plus they aren't always going to go off. Plus Massas' head had a massive impact with the steering wheel, how would a cage do in that situation? I think having something metal directly attached to the front of a helmet is more of a risk than it mitigates for simple reasons about how it would be mounted and what kind of damage it would do to a helmet in an impact with a steering wheel.

You make it sound like I want to put a catchers mask on his existing race helmet with glue and duct tape.

Im talking about an integral, shock absorbing, new design for a helmet, that could be worth a proof of concept.

Steel, hitting carbon fibre, should win, should it not in a "smash off"? I would rather have a helmet with steel bars in it (Much like the proven tech of beams in car doors, or rebar reinforcing concrete).

Maybe the drivers helmets should be more like the sword dueling knight helmets of old. Oblique surfaces that deflect damage away. A round helmet, pretty much makes getting hit by something the worst, as every angle has a "broadside".

This pic is a little extreme, but maybe a shape more like this could deflect debris past the drivers head, creating less impact, and the HANS device should keep the head from twisting too far to the side in that kind of impact.




It's a crappy situation that might have no solution. Racing is dangerous, and that is why racing drivers are the ultimate athletic heroes. They literally risk their lives, bodies, and minds every race.

[ISLAMATRON]

I work on ejection seats for the United States Marines on F/A-18s. I think I know a shitload more about explosives on jets, and especially canopies than you ever hope to. They are dangerous no matter what they are on. Like I said, what if that 'pop cap' was set off on the track by mistake? The pressure difference would pull the canopy off and it would land on the track. It's not a safe, nor sound idea.

Is that you in your avatar? Hitting an explosive bolt with a sledge hammer? I know quite a bit about military(navy & MC) explosives & weapon systems being an ex-Navy military officer, but I did not physically handle them, so I defer to your experience.

[timbo]

Jet planes are under way more stress than an F1 car would ever be.

yep, but that is sustained load not a crash like - ever seen jetplane jumping on curbs?

[Ray]

You make it sound like I want to put a catchers mask on his existing race helmet with glue and duct tape.

Im talking about an integral, shock absorbing, new design for a helmet, that could be worth a proof of concept.

Steel, hitting carbon fibre, should win, should it not in a "smash off"? I would rather have a helmet with steel bars in it (Much like the proven tech of beams in car doors, or rebar reinforcing concrete).

Maybe the drivers helmets should be more like the sword dueling knight helmets of old. Oblique surfaces that deflect damage away. A round helmet, pretty much makes getting hit by something the worst, as every angle has a "broadside".

This pic is a little extreme, but maybe a shape more like this could deflect debris past the drivers head, creating less impact, and the HANS device should keep the head from twisting too far to the side in that kind of impact.




It's a crappy situation that might have no solution. Racing is dangerous, and that is why racing drivers are the ultimate athletic heroes. They literally risk their lives, bodies, and minds every race.

Well that makes alot more sense! If it is integrated into the helmet I would very much agree with you. But I would have to disagree about something 'attached' to the helmet per se. Something shaped where it would effectively deflect something would be ideal, but I'm no engineer so I wouldn't know how to make it sturdy enough to withstand something impacting it, something possibly pointy. Obviously my dumbass misunderstood you! That being said it would be kinda neat looking. Maybe a Darth Vader helmet?

[timbo]

Well that makes alot more sense! If it is integrated into the helmet I would very much agree with you. But I would have to disagree about something 'attached' to the helmet per se. Something shaped where it would effectively deflect something would be ideal, but I'm no engineer so I wouldn't know how to make it sturdy enough to withstand something impacting it, something possibly pointy. Obviously my dumbass misunderstood you! That being said it would be kinda neat looking. Maybe a Darth Vader helmet?

This may protect against a spring very well, but it won't make a difference when hit by a tire.

[Ray]

I work on ejection seats for the United States Marines on F/A-18s. I think I know a shitload more about explosives on jets, and especially canopies than you ever hope to. They are dangerous no matter what they are on. Like I said, what if that 'pop cap' was set off on the track by mistake? The pressure difference would pull the canopy off and it would land on the track. It's not a safe, nor sound idea.

Is that you in your avatar? Hitting an explosive bolt with a sledge hammer? I know quite a bit about military(navy & MC) explosives & weapon systems being an ex-Navy military officer, but I did not physically handle them, so I defer to your experience.

Honestly, I have no clue what's going on in that picture. I just thought it was funny! I just think having ANY form of explosive, no matter how small is opening a can of worms that isn't worth being opened.

[ISLAMATRON]

Jet planes are under way more stress than an F1 car would ever be.

yep, but that is sustained load not a crash like - ever seen jetplane jumping on curbs?

you mean like landing? on a carrier? they take a good pounding, even just sitting in the hanger bay of the carriers.

[Professor]

Massa in life-threatening condition after surgery
By PAUL LOGOTHETIS (AP) – 53 minutes ago

BUDAPEST, Hungary — Hospital officials say Formula One driver Felipe Massa is in "life-threatening" condition after surgery for a fractured skull from a high-speed crash at Hungarian Grand Prix qualifying.

Officials at the AEK military hospital said Saturday that Massa will be kept sedated on a respirator in an intensive care unit.

Medical director Peter Bazso said at a news conference that "Massa's condition is serious, life-threatening but stable."

Bazso and chief surgeon Lajos Zsiros say they expect Massa to be awoken Sunday.

[ringo]

Explosives are a bit extreme. Spring loaded or compressed air from the pneumatic valving system could do the Job.

Wireless control in the pits is much simpler. Both massa's feet were resting on the pedals in this accident. His car could have coasted down pretty easily if that was not the case.
clumpier helmets and exceptions for wireless control of the throttle in the case a driver loses the ability to control the car is what i am thinking.

I think the fore head is the most critical part on the head, so again something to this effect.

it could also be aerodynamically shaped to assist the car.