Ferrari 150° Italia

[Jeffsvilleusa]

Are we all agreed on this yet?

[-o<

I can't remember where I read what I was referring to, but as I reviewed over Scarbs blog, all the references to 'the hole' were that it is primarily for cooling, and that it's aerodynamic benefit is a compromise at best, because it partially obstructs flow to the rear wing, with the emphasis being on clearing bodywork away from the floor, diffuser and beam wing which are of greater importance (this is all paraphrasing from Scarbs) --> http://scarbsf1.wordpress.com/2011/02/1 ... d-cooling/

[HampusA]

Actually going pull-rod cleans up a lot of the area in front of the top side of the diffuser. Remember the diffuser works as a system not just individually, the diffuser will be more efficient if it gets a cleaner stream of air passing over it. If the opposite were true then the top profile of the front wings don't matter, and all those evolutions are just wastes of money, in fact they should just throw turbulence generating obstructions in front of the FW. Especially if the push-rod makes them so competitive that they get lapped in high aero tracks.

The Ferrari lacks downforce. They get understeer, because if they cranked up the front wing their car would be unstable. They can't give themselves more front downforce, if they can't balance it at the rear first.

You can´t have Spain as sort of a measure stick on why they got lapped on a highspeed track.
Malaysia for example Alonso was doing very good until he smashed his front wing.

Do you have any profile shots or illustrations of push-rod vs pull rod so we can see how much more space gets freed up?

[godlameroso]

You can most certainly find out for yourself there are plenty of galleries of photos floating around, the difference is obvious, also Alonso had better tires in that particular race. We'll see if Ferrari can get their car sorted by Silverstone, there are a lot of high speed sweepers there and will exacerbate any aero deficiencies

[Lorenzo_Bandini]

During the first stint at Sepang, Alonso pass Button easily.. Same tyre, same fuel load, Alonso was faster.. So you can't take Barcelona for reference..

At Barcelona, Ferrari was very fast in S1, near flat out on T3, an high speed corner

[HampusA]

You can most certainly find out for yourself there are plenty of galleries of photos floating around, the difference is obvious, also Alonso had better tires in that particular race. We'll see if Ferrari can get their car sorted by Silverstone, there are a lot of high speed sweepers there and will exacerbate any aero deficiencies

Are you sure? If i remember correctly Alonso out of the Top Trio teams was the one with the worst tires. He had already done a number of laps when they tell him over the radio to do 25 more laps.
His tires was completely toast in that race.

I´m still not convinced push-rod vs pull-rod suspension would all of a sudden give them the downforce they need, i think it´s just more options of setting the car up. Atleast that´s what Horner said was a key differenc.

[godlameroso]

You can most certainly find out for yourself there are plenty of galleries of photos floating around, the difference is obvious, also Alonso had better tires in that particular race. We'll see if Ferrari can get their car sorted by Silverstone, there are a lot of high speed sweepers there and will exacerbate any aero deficiencies

Are you sure? If i remember correctly Alonso out of the Top Trio teams was the one with the worst tires. He had already done a number of laps when they tell him over the radio to do 25 more laps.
His tires was completely toast in that race.

I´m still not convinced push-rod vs pull-rod suspension would all of a sudden give them the downforce they need, i think it´s just more options of setting the car up. Atleast that´s what Horner said was a key differenc.

You're right I don't think it would give them all the downforce they need, but more is always better. Their car is fundamentally good, there are just some details the rear end that need to be sorted out.






I leave it to the viewer to decide, which do you think is less obstructed?

[oli]

Could it be that the set-up with more rear chassis clearance has an implication on position of the drive shaft (closer to the floor) and wishbones, hence better airflow over the diffusor?

[HampusA]

Honestly, from the pictures you shown, to me it looks like Ferrari has way more space behind the sidepods. And that´s two very different angles of the cars.

But with that said, i don´t know if more or less air gets through the rear wing-diffuser space. It probably does flow more air through that space with Red Bulls setup but i´m not convinced slapping on the similar suspension would lead to world domination of Ferrari with superior downforce levels.
The RBR car is just perfection and i don´t think any teams will get close to the same downforce levels even if they were to nick the front and rear wing and diffuser of the RBR.

[donskar]

HampusA wrote:

But with that said, i don´t know if more or less air gets through the rear wing-diffuser space. It probably does flow more air through that space with Red Bulls setup but i´m not convinced slapping on the similar suspension would lead to world domination of Ferrari with superior downforce levels.
The RBR car is just perfection and i don´t think any teams will get close to the same downforce levels even if they were to nick the front and rear wing and diffuser of the RBR.

You've done a very good job explaining why Ferrari should change the rear end configuration: "more air through that space." I think we all agree that's a good thing, because it is proven to work on several cars, including the RBR, which is "perfection." No, it probably will not lead to "world domination," but it will probably make a good car better. Certainly, Fry must know that changes are needed, if only to satisfy fans and upper management that the team is trying to get better.

[PlatinumZealot]

The thing with the pushrod is that the corners of the space are not as clean as the pull-rod. Ferrari had to raise the lower mounting point of the pushrod after the fly away races to help clear up the exhaust flow. It's still not ideal though.

On the big hole on the back of the car. It is to relocate cooling so thy can better package the side pods. Notice the RedBull has zero holes in the vicinity of the sidepod. So I think it wasn't aimed really at better cooling but definitely for better aerodynamics, (some times Scarbs is not correct he is human). It has no aerodynamic disadvantage - redbull has it for years it must be right.

[Italiano Tifoso]

I dont think the angles of the photo's are doing the RB justice.

If you look at the top of the sidepods you can see that the RB actually drops away towards the diffuser a lot earlier than the F150. It has an earlier more gradual decrease in height which will aid the airflow as opposed to the F150's later more stepper drop in the top profile of the sidepod.

From any angle the RB looks more refined, neater, cleaner, and this is the strength of the design. It seems more thought out.

[PlatinumZealot]

Yes, I agree. The Ferrari has more obstructions in critical areas.

[kebab]

Do you think they can change to pull-rod half way thru the season?

[Byronrhys]

Do you think they can change to pull-rod half way thru the season?

I don't see why everyone sees there problem as push-rod, they haven't came out and said anything about it hampering performance or about rear packaging, so far they identified aero needs and mostly at the front. Pull-rod midseason will just put ferrari behind mercedes if they don't do it correctly which will be really difficult for many reasons.

[marcush.]

more air ,lower drag perfection...you can interpret all and everything into it but fact is :
RedBull are never ever quickest on the straights ...so the car is DRAGGY no matter where it has holes where others have not or vice versa...
they might have smaller openings but they are prepared to sacrifice all the drag gains for more downforce which brings me to the conclusion that all other teams have a very different lift drag ratio compared to RedBull.