Red Bull RB9 Renault

[raymondu999]

Im trying to find evidence from other instances where cars left similar marks.

From Red Bull, or from other cars? I remember Alonso doing it when Webber passed him the first time in Singapore 2011 (Alonso missed the apex of 14 so was slow into 15 - Webber took the outside line on entry and cut back on exit).

Or PM the file.

Not a chance. Nothing against you - I don't mind you having the file - but it's something like 8GB. Lol.

[Hobbs04]

That's fine, 8GB wow. We don't have bbc iplayer over here in the states to watch replays.

[Blanchimont]

In this video of a powerful Pikes Peak car, the same patterns can be seen.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6KdENi_SDz8[/youtube]

[Tim.Wright]

I think we can pretty safely conclude that its a driveline oscillation. The reason for the alternating left/right pattern is likely due to the fact that the diff send the most torque to the slowest wheel. So if one wheel loses traction first, the torque is biased to the other one. If this one then loses traction while the original one slows, then the torque biasing swaps sides and the process repeats.

Or it might be even have nothing to do with the diff. Could simply be the driveshafts oscillating but with the left and right out of phase because the rear tyres weren't evenly loaded when the power was applied.

[irang]

Thought someone would have posted these already...

@Steve Matchett "Ok, I've now talked the matter over with Jon Wheatley, Red Bull's team manager: This is what he had to say"

Jon Wheatley "Ok, seen the clip, been through the data and what happened, in chronological order, was
1) High degree of rear wheel slip.
2) Joint in the tarmac.
3) Cross axle oscillation.
4) Alternating driveshaft wind and unwind out of phase. If you have a good look at the vid you can see the rubber marks alternate left and right rather than as pairs."
End of quote.

https://twitter.com/MrSteveMatchett/sta ... 5235518464
https://twitter.com/MrSteveMatchett/sta ... 2483803136
https://twitter.com/MrSteveMatchett/sta ... 2829205506

[spiritone]

Here's my take.

I find it hard to believe that a red bull employee, if he knew they had some kind of traction control, would come out and say "Yeah sure we have tc, we've been running it for 3 yrs, you caught us". So steve asking him that question is a waste of time.
If they do not have tc then someone explain how they get their cars to hookup out of slow corners with hardly a wisp of wheelspin? They then must have a much superior suspension system or a much better engine map then any team, and nobody has been able to find out what gives. There are some smart people on this forum but we're talking about a team that has assembled some of the smartest people on the planet to work on their cars. How long did it take for people to twig on to rbr flexy wing? It took pictures on a forum before the fia did anything. Even when the pictures appeared many fans argued that they were'nt flexing it was just the angle of the picture.
Do the stewards that check the cars before each event even have the expertise to find it? How long did it take for the fia to find out that the benneton was running tc. Even when they did find it the fia did nothing.
Am i saying that they are definitely cheating, no. What i am saying is there is a suspicion somethings going on and so far nobody has been able to come up with an answer that makes sense to me. There was illegal tc in nhra drag racing for a few years that the nhra couldn't find. Clever people will always find ways around rules. just my opinion.

[wesley123]

I find it hard to believe that a red bull employee, if he knew they had some kind of traction control, would come out and say "Yeah sure we have tc, we've been running it for 3 yrs, you caught us". So steve asking him that question is a waste of time.

There are other teams too, teams that complained about the littlest of Red Bulls advantages, yet no one even said a thing about this "obvious TC"

If they do not have tc then someone explain how they get their cars to hookup out of slow corners with hardly a wisp of wheelspin?

Torque mapping, suspension setup, aero grip, tire grip, the driver. All par of this "no wheelspin". Plus, I dont see other cars have much wheelspin either.

There are some smart people on this forum but we're talking about a team that has assembled some of the smartest people on the planet to work on their cars.

So? Just cause they are smart doesnt mean they can perform some sort of miracle, TC would show up in telemetry, it would be noticable in the car, noticable by sound.

How long did it take for people to twig on to rbr flexy wing?

Not that long.

It took pictures on a forum before the fia did anything.

Really?

Even when the pictures appeared many fans argued that they were'nt flexing it was just the angle of the picture.

And it often was.

Do the stewards that check the cars before each event even have the expertise to find it?

1. TC would be noticable on telemetry
2. TC could be heard
3. TC would be noticable by the drivers
4. TC prevents wheelspin, it doesnt cause it
5. Teams would have noticed, and have complained
6. It would be noticable on the tires

How long did it take for the fia to find out that the benneton was running tc. Even when they did find it the fia did nothing.

That is almost 20 years ago, times have changed.

Am i saying that they are definitely cheating, no. What i am saying is there is a suspicion somethings going on and so far nobody has been able to come up with an answer that makes sense to me.

Gearbox oscilation(pretty much confirmed by multiple sources) doesnt make sense? Explain why it doesnt. The only suggestion that doesnt make sense is the TC story.

Really, I would like to know how TC would be possible. I always thought TC was something programmed in the ECU(and then applied by torque and whatever), how is that possible with an ECU that is the same for everyone?

Teams have been applying fancy mapping(multiple peddles behind the wheel) to fix some of this, and that is already common since 2008 http://www.f1technical.net/development/187

I really dont see how people can consider TC, when it shows a picture of a car having wheelspin and leaving tire marks out of a slow corner, TC prevents wheelspin, so then there wouldnt be any tire marks.

[henra]

I think we can pretty safely conclude that its a driveline oscillation.

Or maybe even elasticity of the tyre itself?
Outer Layer deforming and 'piling up' and when exceeding the elasticity, unloading.
Or probably even more likely a combination of all elasticities between engine crankshaft and tarmac adding up.

[lio007]

I'd like to give variety to the discussion:
according to AMUS a rumour is going about that adrian newey and his team is developing a completely new rear of the car to avoid high tire wear.
http://translate.google.com/translate?s ... 42678.html

Is there any evidence?

[Tim.Wright]

I think we can pretty safely conclude that its a driveline oscillation.

Or maybe even elasticity of the tyre itself?
Outer Layer deforming and 'piling up' and when exceeding the elasticity, unloading.
Or probably even more likely a combination of all elasticities between engine crankshaft and tarmac adding up.

Yea sure, I'd count the rear tyres as part of the driveline. Driveline dynamics (by driveline I mean anything transmitting power between the engine and the rear contact patches) are quite a complicated but well accepted field. Especially in road cars where you have elastic mounted engines.

Basically you have a big series concatination of masses and elasticities which have natural frequency modes from 10Hz up until 1000s of Hz and you are trying to pass 700hp through it. The a lot of development work goes into making sure you don't get oscillations like that in normal working conditions. What we saw in Canada was not a normal working condition so its absolutely unsurprising that the car has reacted a little differently.

[spiritone]

I think part of the problem is people are thinking of tc as the normal connected to the engine ecu. That is too obvious. F1 engineers are smarter than that. Do you honestly think that newey wouldn't come up with something a way more sophisticated than that. Stil not convinced.

[flynfrog]

I don't think I have ever seen TC cause marks like that why would it start now. Just because you want redbull to be cheating doesnt mean they are.

[WhiteBlue]

I'd like to give variety to the discussion:
according to AMUS a rumour is going about that adrian newey and his team is developing a completely new rear of the car to avoid high tire wear.
http://translate.google.com/translate?s ... 42678.html
Is there any evidence?

It says the rear suspension would be designed to cope better with circuits that have long sweeping high speed corners with wider radii. The current back end could still be used on tracks like Canada AFAIK. I don't see any evidence of that plan but it sounds logical to do such a thing.

[wesley123]

I think part of the problem is people are thinking of tc as the normal connected to the engine ecu. That is too obvious. F1 engineers are smarter than that. Do you honestly think that newey wouldn't come up with something a way more sophisticated than that. Stil not convinced.

Well obviously you know more than us, tell me how they would hide the TC. And even better, not make it show up in telemetry, without making the well known sound and not make it show in tire wear.

RBR engineers might be super smart, they arent wizards, and magic doesnt exist either.

[spiritone]

Are you a RBR F1 engineer? If you aren't then obviously you wouldn't have the answer now would you. RBR seems to have a pretty good handle on what makes a fast car. They seem to be ahead in most area's that make a car fast. These are complex cars that have been fashioned by a brilliant mind (newey). Do you think it's possible that he has found another grey area that no one else has thought of. I'm one of those people who thinks he just might have.

Its like i said before thinking of tc the old way with the tell tale engine sound and connecting to the ecu is way to obvious to be used in present day F1.