2018 Brazilian Grand Prix - Interlagos, 9-11 November

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Wynters
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Re: 2018 Brazilian Grand Prix - Interlagos, 9-11 November

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Phil wrote:
Tue Nov 13, 2018 9:36 pm
Did anyone even notice the battle between Sainz and Hulkenberg earlier in the race?
Wynters wrote:
Mon Nov 12, 2018 5:03 pm
I wonder how Renault reacted to Sainz's little tap on Hulk? Not ideal for team mates. Also, what a shame for Ericsson :(
I've not seen any reaction from the Renault management about it. I'm guessing that, with Sainz gone at the end of the year, they don't see any point making waves.

Interesting to see how poorly he's done against Hulk this year. It doesn't fill me with hope for MacLaren but, perhaps this has merely been an 'off year'. We'll see next year, I guess.

I'm also guessing that Force India have been pushing investment into next year's car which might explain some of their recent poor performances (not least in this race). With Sauber upping their game, Renault pouring in more money and, maybe, MacLaren working out how to locate their ass with both hands (and a map) we could get another exciting battle next year. It's a shame Haas will likely be falling back and Williams' struggles are only goint to get worse. Still, Kimi vs Hulk and Ricciardo...lip-smackingly good :)

foxmulder_ms
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Re: 2018 Brazilian Grand Prix - Interlagos, 9-11 November

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Alexf1 wrote:
Tue Nov 13, 2018 11:25 pm
Just saw this one:
https://twitter.com/i/status/1061954791734157313
Now I onderstand how Ocon managed to make up 0.5 that lap: DRS+overtake mode vs no DRS and cruise mode
God! I cannot believe Ocon got penalized for this. It is Ves who caused the accident.

ispano6
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Re: 2018 Brazilian Grand Prix - Interlagos, 9-11 November

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foxmulder_ms wrote:
Tue Nov 13, 2018 11:44 pm
Alexf1 wrote:
Tue Nov 13, 2018 11:25 pm
Just saw this one:
https://twitter.com/i/status/1061954791734157313
Now I onderstand how Ocon managed to make up 0.5 that lap: DRS+overtake mode vs no DRS and cruise mode
God! I cannot believe Ocon got penalized for this. It is Ves who caused the accident.
Every previous similar penalty that has been applied was to the car that was behind the clipping car. It might have to do with the fact that a leading car is in a way helpless or vulnerable to a car half a cars length behind but alongside where your mirrors are in effect useless and glancing left or right doesn't yield a view of the car. This isn't to say that Max took care to inspect his blindspots or assume a safety cushion, but judging from this angle and the sequence of S turns resulting from the end of turn 1 the stewards deemed consistently that the leading car entering the apex of turn 2 was on the racing line and the trailing car was pushing outside and did not have the line to go from outside-in without crossing lines. In essense, it's deemed sticking your nose in when you don't really have the move.
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ispano6
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Re: 2018 Brazilian Grand Prix - Interlagos, 9-11 November

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Restomaniac wrote:
Mon Nov 12, 2018 8:19 pm
ispano6 wrote:
Mon Nov 12, 2018 5:03 pm
Pace has nothing to do with this. It's about sportsmanship. Ocon had no reason to clash with Max, other than the fact that Ocon mentioned himself that there IS a history of the two clashing.

Max pushing Ocon might be considered poor sportsmanship, but at least it was off the track out of the car. Ocon's deliberate poor sportsmanship cost a potential winner the race. I don't care who it was who would have won but I don't take it likely. Now the question is if it was Lewis or someone else would Ocon have ceded? Probably.
Strange you should mention ‘sportsmanship’. How sporting is it to put your car directly in the way of your team mate because he dares to want to be past you and making it so late as to give him no chance of avoiding a collision? Watch Baku 2018 for details. Before it’s mentioned, the relevance is obvious.

I can see the clear talent in Verstappen but by god he needs to learn that others are going to and can pass him now and then.
Clearly, Baku 2018 was a case of a battle for position and a commit and lock up by Ricciardo into the rear of his teammate. To say that this incident and the one between Max and Ocon are "comparable" is a bit off-base. If anything, Max has showed great reservation in preventing clashes with Ricciardo and the one other incident where the two came together was at Hungary, where Max locked up and slid out wide and accidentally took Ricciardo out. Perez and Ocon have had more clashes and caused more disarray within their team and I don't remember Perez having much beef with any of his teammates.

Sportsmanship as in racing etiquette. Max pushing Ocon might be "unprofessional" or "unsportsmanlike" but it's not like Max was endangering Ocon or bloodied his face. Most other sports results in brawls, benches emptying, dirty plays. What Max did was MORE than reserved and Ocon's "what did I do?" hands up in the air gesture was personally disappointing. Ocon probably wouldn't have received the shove if he had owned up to it and admitted he cost Max the victory. Obviously we know such an apology wouldn't come from Ocon. And when I say poor sportsmanship I mean it with regard to Esteban Ocon and his poor decision to pass the leader on the outside of turn 1 into the inside of turn 2 and then ultimately not owing up to the incident when confronted by the driver he shafted.
Last edited by ispano6 on Wed Nov 14, 2018 1:19 am, edited 1 time in total.

TwanV
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Re: 2018 Brazilian Grand Prix - Interlagos, 9-11 November

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foxmulder_ms wrote:
Tue Nov 13, 2018 11:44 pm
Alexf1 wrote:
Tue Nov 13, 2018 11:25 pm
Just saw this one:
https://twitter.com/i/status/1061954791734157313
Now I onderstand how Ocon managed to make up 0.5 that lap: DRS+overtake mode vs no DRS and cruise mode
God! I cannot believe Ocon got penalized for this. It is Ves who caused the accident.
So strange that you see that and I see the exact opposite. A lapped driver trying to overtake in turn two and taking the race leader out in the process. His wheels are nowhere near in front. Why do you people keep defending this guy?

If this was for position I might be inclined to think somewhere down the line that this is a race incident due to poor racecraft by young drivers. But for heavens sake this is P16 failing to safely overtake and taking out the race leader... I must be living in a parallel universe or something, how is this in any way ambivalent?

TwanV
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Re: 2018 Brazilian Grand Prix - Interlagos, 9-11 November

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Just_a_fan wrote:
Tue Nov 13, 2018 10:21 pm
TwanV wrote:
Tue Nov 13, 2018 4:23 pm
This is about the only driver that is giving support to Ocon here out of all reactions, both current and former drivers, is Hamilton, the only one to benefit. This is observed by Jolyon Palmer and I agree with him, he will be biased on this matter.
Which other drivers, current and former, have ventured an opinion? Palmer was never much of a driver and is now a pundit with column inches to write. He admitted being hit by a backmarker and getting all angry about it so that kind of puts him in the Max camp - but without his speed, it seems, which is why he's a pundit and not still racing in F1.

And all Hamilton said to Max that he had more to lose than Ocon did. Which is true, no matter how you cut it. Max should have just let him go. That was the sensible thing to do. It's not about who's right etc., but about who maximises the results and gets the rewards. Max chose to tango and got egg on his face. It's his fault that he chose to do that. No one made him get all elbows out with Ocon. No one would have said a bad word about him had he just let him go - on the contrary, we'd all be saying "he's maturing - look how he let Ocon go, not like the old Max". Now we're saying "oh look, Max is still petulant and unable to see the big picture".

Hey, the only one who lost out was Max. The only one who can learn from this is Max. Will he? We'll see.

Max has tried to make a reputation for himself as being hard to race next to - done, no doubt, to make others scared of him and so make it easier to attack/defend against others. He tried to do the same here and misjudged the situation. He lost out. A good driver learns from these situations. Let's see whether Max learns or not.
Palmer, Coulthard, Brundle, Webber, Villeneuve, Doornbos, Massa, do I need to go on? All unanimous

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strad
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Re: 2018 Brazilian Grand Prix - Interlagos, 9-11 November

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This is so simple. From where Max got hit you can tell he had a large overlap on Ocon. That means he had the right to the line he chooses and that Ocon must yield. That is why Ocon got penalized.
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GrandAxe
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Re: 2018 Brazilian Grand Prix - Interlagos, 9-11 November

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strad wrote:
Wed Nov 14, 2018 1:48 am
This is so simple. From where Max got hit you can tell he had a large overlap on Ocon. That means he had the right to the line he chooses and that Ocon must yield. That is why Ocon got penalized.
No, it means both had equal right to the corner. See C. Attacker approximately half-way alongside. The relevant extract is below:

Image
In this case, the attacker’s front axle is ahead of the defender’s rear axle and the two cars are approximately halfway alongside. Both drivers have a reasonable claim to the apex. If contact occurs, blame will have to be shared. It is in this zone that racing incidents can occur. Ayrton Senna was famous for creating situations just like this, as both attacker and defender, where the other driver would have to decide whether or not to yield to avoid a collision.

Note that this is a not a new or controversial set of guidelines. For example, here is essentially the same set of rules presented in The Williams-Renault Formula 1 Motor Racing Book, published back in 1994.
https://f1metrics.wordpress.com/2014/08 ... of-racing/

Max played chicken with Ocon and lost.

foxmulder_ms
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Re: 2018 Brazilian Grand Prix - Interlagos, 9-11 November

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TwanV wrote:
Wed Nov 14, 2018 1:13 am
foxmulder_ms wrote:
Tue Nov 13, 2018 11:44 pm
Alexf1 wrote:
Tue Nov 13, 2018 11:25 pm
Just saw this one:
https://twitter.com/i/status/1061954791734157313
Now I onderstand how Ocon managed to make up 0.5 that lap: DRS+overtake mode vs no DRS and cruise mode
God! I cannot believe Ocon got penalized for this. It is Ves who caused the accident.
So strange that you see that and I see the exact opposite. A lapped driver trying to overtake in turn two and taking the race leader out in the process. His wheels are nowhere near in front. Why do you people keep defending this guy?

If this was for position I might be inclined to think somewhere down the line that this is a race incident due to poor racecraft by young drivers. But for heavens sake this is P16 failing to safely overtake and taking out the race leader... I must be living in a parallel universe or something, how is this in any way ambivalent?
In your second paragraph, you are rather seeing it the way I do. So it is not *that* strange, I guess.

1) Is unlapping ok or not?
2) Is Ves smart defending an unlapping car.
3) Did Ocon divebomb?
4) Did Ves leave 1-car space?

For me it is: 1) ok, 2) a big NO, 3) No, 4) No.

I thank ves for the entertainment and his pseudo macho man acting after the race. It was hilarious.

:) :)

foxmulder_ms
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Re: 2018 Brazilian Grand Prix - Interlagos, 9-11 November

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He articulates better than many:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dtbTi91AmpQ

dans79
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Re: 2018 Brazilian Grand Prix - Interlagos, 9-11 November

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foxmulder_ms wrote:
Wed Nov 14, 2018 6:03 am
He articulates better than many:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dtbTi91AmpQ
The comment section is pure gold, it makes it blatantly obvious just how stupid your average fan is in regards to the rules.
158 95 90 6

ispano6
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Re: 2018 Brazilian Grand Prix - Interlagos, 9-11 November

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dans79 wrote:
Wed Nov 14, 2018 7:26 am
foxmulder_ms wrote:
Wed Nov 14, 2018 6:03 am
He articulates better than many:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dtbTi91AmpQ
The comment section is pure gold, it makes it blatantly obvious just how stupid your average fan is in regards to the rules.
So the FIA is wrong in their ruling? #-o

Cannonballer
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Re: 2018 Brazilian Grand Prix - Interlagos, 9-11 November

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ispano6 wrote:
Wed Nov 14, 2018 12:56 am
Restomaniac wrote:
Mon Nov 12, 2018 8:19 pm
ispano6 wrote:
Mon Nov 12, 2018 5:03 pm
Pace has nothing to do with this. It's about sportsmanship. Ocon had no reason to clash with Max, other than the fact that Ocon mentioned himself that there IS a history of the two clashing.

Max pushing Ocon might be considered poor sportsmanship, but at least it was off the track out of the car. Ocon's deliberate poor sportsmanship cost a potential winner the race. I don't care who it was who would have won but I don't take it likely. Now the question is if it was Lewis or someone else would Ocon have ceded? Probably.
Strange you should mention ‘sportsmanship’. How sporting is it to put your car directly in the way of your team mate because he dares to want to be past you and making it so late as to give him no chance of avoiding a collision? Watch Baku 2018 for details. Before it’s mentioned, the relevance is obvious.

I can see the clear talent in Verstappen but by god he needs to learn that others are going to and can pass him now and then.
Clearly, Baku 2018 was a case of a battle for position and a commit and lock up by Ricciardo into the rear of his teammate. To say that this incident and the one between Max and Ocon are "comparable" is a bit off-base. If anything, Max has showed great reservation in preventing clashes with Ricciardo and the one other incident where the two came together was at Hungary, where Max locked up and slid out wide and accidentally took Ricciardo out. Perez and Ocon have had more clashes and caused more disarray within their team and I don't remember Perez having much beef with any of his teammates.

Sportsmanship as in racing etiquette. Max pushing Ocon might be "unprofessional" or "unsportsmanlike" but it's not like Max was endangering Ocon or bloodied his face. Most other sports results in brawls, benches emptying, dirty plays. What Max did was MORE than reserved and Ocon's "what did I do?" hands up in the air gesture was personally disappointing. Ocon probably wouldn't have received the shove if he had owned up to it and admitted he cost Max the victory. Obviously we know such an apology wouldn't come from Ocon. And when I say poor sportsmanship I mean it with regard to Esteban Ocon and his poor decision to pass the leader on the outside of turn 1 into the inside of turn 2 and then ultimately not owing up to the incident when confronted by the driver he shafted.
I am confused as to your point. Are you saying that Verstappen was entitled to shove Ocon? Was Max wrong to shove him?
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NathanOlder
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Re: 2018 Brazilian Grand Prix - Interlagos, 9-11 November

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TwanV wrote:
Wed Nov 14, 2018 1:13 am
foxmulder_ms wrote:
Tue Nov 13, 2018 11:44 pm
Alexf1 wrote:
Tue Nov 13, 2018 11:25 pm
Just saw this one:
https://twitter.com/i/status/1061954791734157313
Now I onderstand how Ocon managed to make up 0.5 that lap: DRS+overtake mode vs no DRS and cruise mode
God! I cannot believe Ocon got penalized for this. It is Ves who caused the accident.
So strange that you see that and I see the exact opposite. A lapped driver trying to overtake in turn two and taking the race leader out in the process. His wheels are nowhere near in front. Why do you people keep defending this guy?

If this was for position I might be inclined to think somewhere down the line that this is a race incident due to poor racecraft by young drivers. But for heavens sake this is P16 failing to safely overtake and taking out the race leader... I must be living in a parallel universe or something, how is this in any way ambivalent?
STOP SAYING P16 FOR CHRIST SAKE!!!!!

The facts were, he was P10 when he pitted, he came out the pits on the lead lap in P14, he was 12 seconds behind Sainz. After his first flying lap (behind Max) he was 8.7 behind Sainz, Hartley who inherited P10 had not stopped at that point so is due to stop, Gasly was only 0.5 in front of Sainz who were both running on 20/17 lap old Mediums, and Perez was in P11 on new softs. Perez madeit to P10 and Ocon would have had got to P11 for sure and is in position to inherit points if 1 or more cars retire!

Please stop this blatant BS about P16 , no chance of points ect .

And Ocon didn't take the leader out, The Leader drove straight in to a back marker who was rightfully unlapping himself and it all got complicated when Max didnt have the brain capacity to see the big picture. He let history get in his way and couldn't let it go, and in turn he let the win go.

Jos Verstappen took a leader out 17yrs ago!!
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NathanOlder
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Re: 2018 Brazilian Grand Prix - Interlagos, 9-11 November

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strad wrote:
Wed Nov 14, 2018 1:48 am
This is so simple. From where Max got hit you can tell he had a large overlap on Ocon. That means he had the right to the line he chooses and that Ocon must yield. That is why Ocon got penalized.
This would mean what Schumacher did to Hill in 1994 was Hill's fault !?! Hill should have got a penalty and Schumacher was punted out the race!
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